GRO Price Increase Petition

[richarde1979]

When Scotland can provide us with the info on historical Certs, for 1.25, records offices can provide copies of their records for similar, and places elsewhere in the world can provide absolutely free acess to their BMD records, we must then ask why it costs us 14 to 15 pounds in real terms to provide the same via a certificate. If Guy is correct our system is absolutely the problem. Yes we have a bigger population than Scotland, but no way can that account alone for a 1000% plus rise in the amount of overheads on the service here from there. Apart from the population difference their overheads can not be that significantly different.

Their seems also real confusion about how much it costs them to produce a certificate (2.00 is the figure I have seen quoted from a Freedom of Information request.)

I suggest we use common sense. It should never in a million years cost 14 to 15 pounds to give us a few lines of information, and if god forbid it actually does, then we must scrap the entire system lock stock and barrel, dismantle it completely and start again. It's rotten.

[MUMMYG]

I was talking about the government not the GRO, obviously they dont create the law and you can make the figures say what you want them to say, or they can, I dont believe them, and its still wrong.

[richarde1979]

Also Guys points out that the fact they are currently running at a loss. In the context it seemed to be provided as evidence then they must be undercharging on certificates.  But, what about all the certificates that arrive wrong, have to be resent out, and they ask you to send the old one back in a prepaid envelope they send out? The amount of waste there....Then the certs that do not arrive at all. The staff on the phones dealing with both these queries.......all adds up.

Inefficiency is certainly losing them money too, how much is anyones guess, but the amount of times these things have happened to me, and I have repeatedly read the same on boards such as this, suggest it is not a negligable amount. It certainly contributes  to their losses.

[andycand]

Hi

When Scotland can provide us with the info on historical Certs, for 1.25

Actually, 1.25 is the cost of a copy of the registration not a certificate, certificates in Scotland cost 10.00 GDP, dearer than the new rate in England & Wales.

Their seems also real confusion about how much it costs them to produce a certificate (2.00 is the figure I have seen quoted from a Freedom of Information request.)

This FOI request is very selective in what it included and quite frankly is a very poor example of costing.  It completely ignores the other staff such as IT, finance ( 1.5 million certificates equates to 1.5 million payments to process) telephone/reception, management etc all of which contribute to the department costs, then there are the non-salaried costs.

Andy

[richarde1979]

"Actually, 1.25 is the cost of a copy of the registration not a certificate, certificates in Scotland cost 10.00 GDP, dearer than the new rate in England & Wales


Yes 100% well aware of that. But really I didn't mention it as as far as I am concerned it is a more or less an irrelevence. We are talking the information on historical certs, which Scotland can and does provide for 1.25, and elsewhere in the world can be provided absolutely free, so there is no justification whatsoever that it should costs us 15 to 20 pounds to get this information in England, apart from the system being rotten, over complicated, and inefficiently run. This is common sense.

I take your point about the F of I requests, but that is really the point I was making anyway. There is real confusion over the matter. Your assuming the 2.00 figure quoted dosn't take into account all them costs. Do you have evidence for that? I have been unable to get a clear answer just what it included and  what it didn't. Personally I find it more than believable that it does include staff and ancillary costs, as actually calling up a digital image and printing, putting in an enevelope and sending can at best cost what 50p including the postage?

[nigelp]

It should also be noted they do not make any profit but actually run at a loss (check the published accounts).

Agreed.

However, see reply 36 regarding the fact that the increase may have been made on the basis to cover losses in other areas of the services and activities of the GRO. Issuing BMD certificates is not the only service or activity of the GRO. For example, very significant expenditure has been incurred on the incomplete original digitisation project.

The price increase does, of course, have to be set by Statutory Instrument since the original prices were included in the 1953 legislation etc. However, in the absence of having seen any proper calculation as to how the prices have been set, and which when compared with the costs of obtaining a copy of an entry from a parish register from a records office appear to be excessive, it appears that 'the number crunchers' (whoever they may be - the GRO, the Treasury....) have simply looked at the overall loss of the GRO and inflation and asked family historians and others to cover losses for other GRO activities and services.

I would be interested to see how you calculated £15 - £20 for a certificate.

Nigel

[les_looking]

For those who keep mentioning Scotlandspeople, then it is slightly misleading, i'm sure someone will
have mentioned before? their birth records are only available 1855-1909 so a time span of 54 years, outside of that
you have to pay £10 for the extract, PLUS the minimum £6 to register and get the entry, if you have numerous certificates
in that time period then it can be cheaper, so great if your lucky
that your relative decided to be born within that 54 years, if not then the uk system is a lot cheaper,
if your relatives were from London you could say the LMA records are far more comprehensive and a lot cheaper
for the period 1754-1921, then include baptisms/births etc, and covers a lot more in total than Scotland,
so to compare Scotlands records is very misleading.
As for apathy, lol sorry £2-25 doesn't make me want to get a banner out, hug a tree or storm whitehall chanting,
I, ME, MYSELF am big and ugly enough to decide what is or isnt expensive in MY opinion.

[andycand]

Hi

take your point about the F of I requests, but that is really the point I was making anyway. There is real confusion over the matter. Your assuming the 2.00 figure quoted dosn't take into account all them costs. Do you have evidence for that?  

This is the link relating to the FOI request.

http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/files/ips/live/assets/documents/FOI9902_response.pdf

It would certainly be ideal if England & Wales had a similar system to Scotland regarding  access to the historical registers but it would require either a change in law or a change in the interpretation of the law (I'll leave the legal experts to decide which would be necessary) but there would be a fairly substantial set up cost and I suspect that irrespective of who gets in, this wouldn't be high on the agenda.
Funnily enough it may well be that the best chance of this happening would be for the push to come from within the GRO and knocking them for alleged shortcomings doesn't help.

There are a small number of BMD's from various parts of the world accessable through Ancestry and I think the LDS but not that many, whilst with regards to the records offices, which are subsidised by local ratepayers, I tend to agree with a comment from Nigel in an earlier post that you could argue that staff in records offices are primarily employed for other purposes which is not the case with the GRO.

Andy

[Guy Etchells]

I would advise anyone who thinks providing a certificate is as simple as click the mouse a few times to take a tour of the Southport Hydro.
These free tour occur frequently and they will show you just how much effort actually goes into the process.
Cheers
Guy