Sherrington Parish Registers - DOWNING (DOWNYNG), 16th century

[dukewm]

Hello again Paul,
Re: Reply of Aug 9, 2025

The data I have is an UNverified “work-in-progress” regarding these Travers(e)/Spring/Brown(e) relationships, and several sources seem to be partially correct, conflicting, or erroneous.

However, some of the connections are likely accurate.  It’s quite complicated.

The Downing family connection to Travers is based on info sourced from Mary Agnes Hickson’s “Selections from Old Kerry Records: Historical and Genealogical: with Introductory Memoir Notes and Appendix”, 1872, Watson & Hazell.
In that reference, Hickson claims Annabella Brown, eldest dau. of John Brown and Katherine O’Ryan, on the death of her 1st husband, William Apsley, married secondly, Capt. Thomas Spring . . . and had issue two sons and five daughters, the third of which was Susanna.  She then states that Susanna, 3rd dau. of Capt. Thomas Spring and Annabella Brown, married “Traverse of Killfallyny, Co. Kerry and had issue nine sons and two daughters.
She further states that “Annabella the elder dau. of Traverse and Susanna Spring married Capt. John Downing in the County Cork and Waterford and had issue two sons, viz., Robert Downing a Major in Holland, and John Downing a Captain in King Charles the seconds Guards.

I know for a FACT that Capt. John Downing, estimated DOB c.1608, apparently married Catherine BROWN (not a dau. of Sir Valentine, but another branch), and had by her two sons, Maj. John, and Maj. Robert, who BOTH joined the Horse Guards of King Charles, in 1660 and 1667 respectively.
Capt. John swore in a Deposition dated 30 Jun 1642, that he had suffered unrecoverable debts owed by Edward Spring and Walter Travers, apparent kinsmen.

On Capt. Thomas Spring, it has been determined by examination of his paternal ancestry that was certainly born in 1519 and would have been about 61 years old when he married the widow Annabella Apsley (nee Brown), who was about 30 years younger.  One of their aforementioned two sons, was Walter Spring, and Susanna, the 3rd dau. were both born “after 1580” according to an UNverified source, which conflicts with the estimated birth year of her (SUPPOSED) daughter, Catherine (Travers), who I have as born c.1578.

Getting back to Travers as the suspected husband of Susanna Spring, and father of Catherine, remember that Hickson said Travers was of Killfallyny, a nonexistent place name today.  Her forename was Catherine, not Annabella, and she married Lt. John Downing, not his son Capt. John.
Also, it’s plausible that “Killfallyny” may have been misinterpreted to refer to a place named Kilfinny, Co. Limerick, which is just 1.1 miles south of the present-day village of Finniterstown, where Lt. John was almost certainly granted a freehold by his former Commander, Capt. Sir Francis Berkeley of Askeaton.  Finniterstown was then known as Pobalfentarragh, an estate inherited by Lt. John’s eldest son, Robert, so named in his Will, dated 3 Jun 1629.

So, as you can see, these surnames are certainly linked, and circumstantial evidence from various sources suggest connections.  The data DOES need further proof though before definitive conclusions can be “etched in stone”.

[stricpa]

I agree with you that it is complicated. I think I'll just start at the beginning of your latest and work my way through it if I can.

From the Travers side, I still find Hickson/Blennerhassett persuasive. Annabella Browne married Capt Thomas Spring in 1583, almost immediately after the death of her first husband, which means that Susanna, their third daughter, could not have been born much before 1587. Susanna married a Travers, who I believe to have been Alexander Travers, an ensign in the army and sometime sheriff of Co Kerry. Alexander would have been born c1570-75, and he would have married Susanna c1607, and they had numerous children - but only two girls according to Hickson (Annabella and Alice - no sign of a Catherine). These dates allow for Annabella marrying John Downing Jr whose own dob would seem to be 1605-10.

In stating that you know for a fact that JD Jr 'apparently' married Catherine Browne, how sure are you exactly? The CB who was a daughter of Sir VB and Ellis Fitzgerald married Sir Terence Magrath (who wasn't born until 1628 at the earliest - his parents married in 1627) and so would have been too young to have married JD Jr.  The CB we seek is far more likely to have been the daughter of his father Nicholas Brown, Esq. and Julia O'Sullivan, since for CB to have married JD Sr., and to have had a son JD Jr. approximately when she did, she would probably have been born c1580-85. (But she could have been some other Browne altogether - there were plenty of them, after all.) Moreover, quite a lot of the Brownes were strong Catholics - VB even married a Desmond, so I can't see many of them wanting to marry a Downing!

Moving back to the Springs. There is some uncertainty here about the sequence of the generations, but I am fairly certain that Capt Thomas Spring was not born in 1519. That would make him 48 when he first went over to Ireland - quite old to be just a lieutenant, which he was when he went out there - 65 when he was appointed Constable of Castlemaine and 73 when appointed High Sheriff of Co Kerry (note possible Travers connection!). A dob of 1519 would also make him the son of Thomas Spring of Lavenham, the wealthy cloth merchant, although he is usually described as his grandson or even great grandson, with a dob of 1545-50.

I look forward to hearing what you think.

[dukewm]

In reply to stricpa post dated 26 Aug 25 - Reply # 91

Firstly, I am not disputing any of the data you have presented, and my research on these DOWNING/TRAVERS/SPRING/BROWN relationships is partially based on the Hickson and Blennerhassett accounts.

DISCLAIMER
FYI: although all of this is genealogical research and obviously should follow strict guidelines using verified information, I often take the liberty to formulate theoretical connections based on evidence that I piece together.  It is by no means definitive.  I just use it as data available for further research and look for other clues that might verify it in the future.

My data regarding the birth years of Susanna Spring and her daughter, (the possible) Catherine Travers, is certainly flawed.  According to Humphrys, Mark, Browne of Awney, Co. Limerick, Capt. Thomas Spring married Annabella (nee Brown), the widow of Apsley, AFTER 1580, when she was about 30 years old.  Corroborative research indicates that Capt. Thomas was born in 1519 and would then have been at least 61 years old, when starting a family that included 2 sons and 5 daughters, all born in the 1580s.  As proclaimed by Hickson, Susanna was the 3rd dau born circa 1583.
HOWEVER, the wife of Lt. John Downinge, given name Catherine (verified), that I presumed to be the daughter of a TRAVERS, must also have been born by about 1583, or EARLIER, because her eldest daughter, Katherine, was born circa 1603, and she almost certainly had at least one elder brother.  So, THAT TIMELINE DOES NOT FIT.

You say you believe Susanna Spring married ALEXANDER TRAVERS, b. c.1570-75, about 1607 and had two daughters, Annabella and Alice, with Annabella ending up married to Capt. John Downing, who was born c.1605-10.
Interestingly, those two daughters by the same names are tentatively in my tree as the two youngest of the 5 previously mentioned as daughters of Capt. Thomas Spring, and younger sisters of Susanna.
BTW: I have Capt. John Downing, son of Lt. John (and Catherine nee ?), as born c.1608-10, so we agree on that.  There is no doubt that the two sons who served in the Horse Guards were sons of Capt. John, NOT Lt. John Downinge.
As for the given name of Capt. John's wife, I have Catherine "Browne" penciled in, but know she was not the daughter of Sir Valentine (Jr), 2nd Baronet, who had a daughter by that name who married McGrath.  I have considered that she was likely from another Browne branch.
You may be right that his wife, whether her given name was Catherine, or otherwise, could have been one of the younger daughters of Sir Nicholas Browne.  I have his eldest son as Sir Valentine (Sr), 1st Baronet, followed by Anne who married Edward Spring, then 4 UNNAMED daughters.  That would make the timeline fit Capt. John Downing.

On the Springs, I have pretty reliable data from Johnson, Jeff, The Springs Rise to Nobility: Chapter 2.  This "chapter" by Johnson, helps to clear up some of the conflicting data.  He states the following, to wit:
Thomas (III), b. 1456, married 'Alice' (unkn surname) in 1475, and had just ONE child, Thomas (IV), born in 1476 (Thomas of Lavenham)
In 1499, Thomas (IV) and Ann had their 2nd son, Robert
In 1518, Thomas (IV)'s 2nd son, Robert, married at age 18, Anne Eden, daughter of Thomas Eden of London
In 1519, Robert & Anne had their 1st son, Thomas (Capt. Thomas)
Robert, 2nd son of Thomas (IV) had six other sons by his wife, Ann (nee Eden); Jerome, Robert, John, Nicholas, Stephen, and Henry.
Any one of those other 6 sons was potentially the father of Susanna Spring and possible grandfather of Catherine Travers, who married Lt. John Downinge, and the timeline would fit in that scenario.
see    http://sites.rootsweb.com/~jpjgenealogy/04-matrnl/01-spring/01-uk/03_nobility/nobility.htm

Sidenote: I'd like to hear more about ALEXANDER TRAVERS

Some of this meshes and it seems to be a more refined puzzle at this point.

Forward Into the Past,
Rick

[dukewm]

Also, from your Reply # 91 :
 
"In stating that you know for a fact that JD Jr 'apparently' married Catherine Browne, how sure are you exactly? The CB who was a daughter of Sir VB and Ellis Fitzgerald married Sir Terence Magrath (who wasn't born until 1628 at the earliest - his parents married in 1627) and so would have been too young to have married JD Jr.  The CB we seek is far more likely to have been the daughter of his father Nicholas Brown, Esq. and Julia O'Sullivan, since for CB to have married JD Sr., and to have had a son JD Jr. approximately when she did, she would probably have been born c1580-85. (But she could have been some other Browne altogether - there were plenty of them, after all.)"

I have two images from hand-written accounts by:
King, Jeremiah, County Kerry, Past & Present: A Handbook to the Local and Family History of the County, ; ©1931 ; Hodges, Figgis & Co. ; p. 124 under Downing
 . . . that proclaim that Capt. John Downing (the younger) married Catherine, dau, of Sir Valentine  Browne of Molahiffe . . .

though we have since agreed that was another "Katherin" who married Sir Terence/Turlough Magrath, 2nd Baronet of Allevollan, Co. Tipperary

Just wanted to cite the source of my earlier data, so perhaps as we said before, she was a BROWNE, but from another branch