Author Topic: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?  (Read 2895 times)

Offline martianuk

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Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« on: Sunday 20 March 05 03:57 GMT (UK) »
I know that the famous 1854 cholera epidemic was heavily centered around the Broad Street pump, but was the area for the wealthy, middle or working class?

I have an ancestor that was a 'fund holder' and 'Gentleman'. When he died in the epidemic at 28, his widow became an 'annuitant', so I'm assuming that he was wealthy, but does his residence in Broad Street support this theory?

I'm trying to get a picture of the area to possibly help understand the situation around a mystery (see the post on the general England message board about  2 VanToll's on honeymoon). The Gentleman may not have actually lived in Greenwich, but his 'son' was born there.

Anyone know of Greenwich history and which census area Broad Street would have been covered by? Another chatter was telling me that the registration district of Greenwich isn't the same as the census district.
Williams, Margot, Beebe, Van Toll, Hunt, James, Pengelly, Haskett, Triggs

Offline Sylviaann

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 20 March 05 14:05 GMT (UK) »
I think you will find that the Broad Street Pump in the 1854 Cholera epidemic was in West london, near Oxford Strret, and Not Greenwich.

http://www.crissycorkboard.org/gis_class/london.htm

I cannot find a Broad Street in Greenwich either in the A to Z of Victorian London or Victorian Streets on the net.  There was and still is I think a Broadway in Blackheath/Lewisham and also a Broad Lawn

What exactly does it say on the death certificate?

Sylviaann
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Norfolk: Gooch, Loveday, Lake, Betts
Suffolk: Gooch, Crosby, Turner
Hampshire: Laws, Burrows
Kent: Beer
Jersey: Barette, de Gruchy
East London: Middleton, Gower, O'Farrell, Smith, Weston

Offline martianuk

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 20 March 05 15:25 GMT (UK) »
:o That's really interesting - and probably why I'm stuck!

I know that Frank Orlando Henry Delmar (VanToll - his mother's married name, which she used on census returns) was born in Greenwich, 1857 - my parents have his birth cert and can't quite read the street name, at first they thought Grind Street, then B---d Street, then gave up. I looked for a marriage cert for his parents (Henry Delmar and Emma Delmar - form Lamb) and have Henry Delmar VanToll and Emma Lamb in 1851 in Paddington. On that, Henry's father had exactly the same name and occupation, so there are 2 Henry Delmar VanToll's in existence.

I searched through the 1837online death index from 1851 to 1867 (what a cost!) and found only one VanToll registered death: Henry Delmar VanToll in 1854, Aylesford, Kent. Well, knowing that Frank wasn't born until 1857, it must have been Henry senior's death.

The cert arrived and said that Henry was 28 and died on board a barge on the River Medway after 2 days of diarrhea and 14 hours certified cholera (poor man). When I saw some info on an epidemic the same year and the word Broad Street, I made what now seems to be a very big, incorrect assumption! That Frank was born in Broad Street and his Henry must have too and contracted the fatal illness and been stuck out on a floating barge with other victims.

Clearly, Henry, age 28, couldn't have been Frank's father, but maybe Emma had him illegitimately and used her late husband's name. Why she didn't add the last name VanToll onto any name on Frank's birth cert I don't know. But I'd better not make anymore assumptions!
Williams, Margot, Beebe, Van Toll, Hunt, James, Pengelly, Haskett, Triggs

Offline martianuk

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 20 March 05 15:48 GMT (UK) »
Okay - I've seen that Broad Street is probably now Broadwick Street in Soho, surrounded by Great Marlborough Street, Regent and Oxford Street. The St. James area is to the southwest of Regent Street and Emma Lamb's residence at the time of marriage was "Of the James District". I wonder if this Soho/St James area is the one I should be searching in for the couple on an 1851 census (they married on 11th  March 1851 - St Mary's church, Paddington - his residence at time of marriage). I wonder where the Paddington district is?
Williams, Margot, Beebe, Van Toll, Hunt, James, Pengelly, Haskett, Triggs


Offline Sylviaann

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 20 March 05 17:01 GMT (UK) »
I think you want St Mary's Paddington Green.  There is a St Mary Magdelene in Paddington.

Paddington Green is just off the Edgeware Road.  I think it is classed as West London but maybe North London

Paddington is an area in itself for census purposes but I don't know if anyone has any indexes for it.  Apparently you should also look in the Kensington area.  It is not too far from Broad Street.  Kensington is quite a "Posh" area but I believe Paddington is less so.  Not too sure.

Can you post a copy of the Greenwich cert here.  People love reading the writing.  Greenwich was once called Royal Greenwich as Royalty lived there and there is the Royal Park and Royal Observatory but some of it near the docks could be a bit tatty.

Sylviaann
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Norfolk: Gooch, Loveday, Lake, Betts
Suffolk: Gooch, Crosby, Turner
Hampshire: Laws, Burrows
Kent: Beer
Jersey: Barette, de Gruchy
East London: Middleton, Gower, O'Farrell, Smith, Weston

Offline martianuk

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 20 March 05 17:57 GMT (UK) »
I don't yet know how to insert a file - maybe you can help again. But asking my parents to scan it (I live abroad), could take days! Watch this space...
Williams, Margot, Beebe, Van Toll, Hunt, James, Pengelly, Haskett, Triggs

Offline Sylviaann

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 20 March 05 18:09 GMT (UK) »
When you are posting at the bottom it says Additional Options.  There you can attach files.

You probably should start a new topic when you do post it.

You should probably ask for a new lookup for Paddington and district.  I don't know if anyone will be able to help you.  I suspect people have already looked but if you put Paddington in the heading it may help.

Sylviaann
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Norfolk: Gooch, Loveday, Lake, Betts
Suffolk: Gooch, Crosby, Turner
Hampshire: Laws, Burrows
Kent: Beer
Jersey: Barette, de Gruchy
East London: Middleton, Gower, O'Farrell, Smith, Weston

Offline cissellby

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 23 March 05 09:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
   Broad St is a continuation of Oxford St, near Soho Sq. Not all of Kensington was well to do, North Kensington, also known as Kensal Town was mainly made up of the poor.
The 1802 map shows Broad St, you can download this from www.Motco.com.
Cissellby
Hopcroft. Aldridge. Hepton. Howard. Adolpho.
Westminster. Marylebone. Kensington. Paddington.
Census information is Crown Copyright,from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline DebraLyons

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Re: Greenwich Broad Street: poor or affluent?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 22 April 05 00:38 BST (UK) »
Hi I saw your messages and wondered if you had seen the attached web site.  I found it very useful for the same reason with my family of Huntly and Lysnar in London during a similar period.  It's easier if you know your way around London.  Good Luck
http://www.umich.edu/~risotto/home.html