John wells or walls 1876 looking for parents

[geordiemac48]

Hi Wattnb/Bluebike!

Sorry I have not been down to our City library as yet, had a hacking cough/sore throat for nigh on 3 weeks, just getting over it, but did not want to spread germs around. Hoping I'll get down sometime next week to look at the records....and I had a BT line out for 3 days with no internet, first time I've been looking at these sites though for quite a while.Hope you are all well

Bill

[happygirl]

Just a little update I have James Wells b.1840 m. to Margaret McMurdo 20th Oct 1865 at Kirkmahoe on marriage certificate James parents are Michael Wells and Mary Ann Gibson.
James died before 1892
Margaret d.1878 age 34yrs mother of Rachel McMurdo m.to Thomas Walls

[geordiemac48]

Norma/Henry, finally got to the central library today alas too late to get onto one of the computers (all had been booked) but looked at Microfiche and1 book , so little info on these 3
St. Andrews RC Church, Newcastle upon tyne record of baptisms up to 1840
James Walls, born 20 June 1830, christened 11 July and Godparents James McKonnell and Mary Atkinson.....parents Francis and Catherine Conley.
John McKenna, born 01 October 1830. CH. 25 Oct, Godparents James McQuillan and Mary Murray
parents Patrick McKenna and Rose Walls..baptism record gives him as Patrick, not Peter
Lawrence Walls, born 22 Mar 1832, Ch 02 April, Godparents William and Ann McKenna.
I could not find any record of Ann Walls, Ch 22 May 1843, not William Walls Ch 30th Aug 1846 in any book in the library nor on microfiche, and niether could one of the library assistants find any record online with her computer???.......Looks like further investigation online at the library another day, I can get 2 free hours with a few genealogy websites, presume the name is Walls and were they all RC...and will try and find address/employment etc nest down on these parents. William

[wattnb]

Hiya,

I have not been able to concentrate on this for a while but I have access to findmypast at the moment and have come up with some more info. It looks like Francis and Catherine moved about a bit - from Dumfries, to Cumberland to Newcastle to Hartlepool and then to Liverpool. These are some of the births I found

Francis Walls and Catherine Conley

MARY Walls 1827 Dumfries
Francis Walls and Catherine Campbell

JAMES Walls born to Francis Walls and Catherine Conley and christened 11 July 1830 in Newcastle


CATHERINE 1833 (1841 census) Heworth,, Cumberland


FRANCIS Walls          1835 Hartlepool, Durham
   Franciscus Walls
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth:   12 April 1835   
christening:   1 June 1835   SAINT HILDAS-ROMAN CATHOLIC,HARTLEPOOL,DURHAM,ENGLAND
Father:   Francisci Walls   mother:   Catharina Conley


ELIZABETH Walls 1843 Liverpool
Father:   Francis      mother:   Catharine Conley   

AGNES Walls 1845 Liverpool
father:   Frances Walls   mother:   Catharine Connolly

JOSEPH Walls b. 1847 Liverpool
father:   Francis Walls   mother:   Catherine Conolly

I have some info I would like to pm you with Geordiemac and Bluebike to see what you think. Can you pm me your email addresses?

[sharonbrown22]

Hi 
I think I have managed to understand and make all connections from the information given.  I am the 3 great grandchild of John Walls and Elizabeth Kirkpatrick.  Their daughter is Annie Walls my 2nd great grandmother (whom my grandmother was named after). 

I do have quite a bit of information going down this side of the tree if anyone interested.  As for going up the tree from John to his father, I came to conclusion a very long time ago that John and Micheal Walls were brothers.  I think laurence and john walls (cousins) married sisters -- the kirkpatricks, but need to start checking this..

Sharon

[Bluebike1]

Hi Sharon,

My thoughts are

they are all originally Walls according to Catholic Church records. That fits with Michael being Irish.

Laurence the Pig Dealer looks to be Michael's son according to death record. As he was  born before the Church was built so birth record to validate. Similarly marriage record to Martha in 1841 before  statutory records does not supply fathers name. However age of Laurence the Pig dealer shows he was born after Michael's illegitimate son in 1807 could back up the death record evidence.


Note this Laurence and Martha's marriage is an OPR,  so a protestant marriage, name spelt Wells. All the true Wells in Dumfriesshire at the time were protestants. So this spelling probably an understandable error by the clerk, since Walls otherwise unknown. Alternately a deliberate change to hide the Catholic past. Similarly spelling every Walls as Wells nearly 100% from the 1841 census could be simple errors or deliberate change.
     
Michael had a brother called Laurence. the one who went to Edinburgh. he was a little older than Laurence the pig dealer and John.  So Michael, Laurence and John could be brothers, as you suggest. ----- I did not think of that---------- I concluded think that Laurence the Pig dealer and John were brothers, so Michael would be John's father.

John and Elizabeth had a daughter called Anne, perhaps after Michaels's wife Mary Anne (commonly referred to as simply Anne) Gibson? Laurence and Martha also had a girl called Mary Anne after Laurence probable mother. John and Laurence the Pig dealer must have been close, " as thick as thieves". 

 If John and Michel were brothers,  then John would surely have been close to Michael's other brother Laurence who went to Edinburgh, ( with his parent's I think) as they again were of similar age.

 So I think  Brothers marrying sisters is more likely that cousins, but your though should not be discounted.

Oh and yes please, it would me nice to see the line down from Ann or Anna Wells ( or Walls). Did they stay in Dumfries?


Henry 


   

 

[wattnb]

Hi,

Regarding the idea that Michael, John and Edinburgh Laurence were brothers:

I have seen a census with Laurence (M to Martha K) living in Edinburgh with his Uncle Laurence. So I agree with you that Michael and Edinburgh Laurence are probably brothers and have the same father, John Walls Snr.

However, John (m. to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick)īs death cert shows his father as being called Laurence. (Edinburgh Laurence was born around a similar time so Edinburgh L. cannot be his father) also Michael was born around 1785 and John around 1814, which is an awfully wide gap unless they had different mothers, which we do not know.

Here is some info I found for the Kirkpatricks BTW. It looks like Martha and Eliz were sisters:
John Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name:   John Kirkpatrick
Gender:   Male
Christening Date:   27 Dec 1812
Christening Place:   , DRYFESDALE, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date:   20 Oct 1812
Mother's Name:   Janet Kirkpatrick
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11820-2 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067958 , Reference ID: 2:160W0H8

Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name:   Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
Gender:   Female
Christening Date:   29 Dec 1813
Christening Place:   , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Father's Name:   Thomas Kirkpatrick
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C19524-1 , System Origin: Scotland-ODM , GS Film number: 1067959
Margaret Kerr Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name:   Margaret Kerr Kirkpatrick
Gender:   Female
Christening Date:   13 Feb 1816
Christening Place:   , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Father's Name:   Thomas Kirkpatrick
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C19524-1 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067959 , Reference ID: 2:169B394

Martha Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name:   Martha Kirkpatrick
Gender:   Female
Christening Date:   14 Jul 1818
Christening Place:   , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date:   12 Jul 1818
Father's Name:   Thomas Kirkpatrick
Mother's Name:   Jannet Keir
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C19524-1 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067959 , Reference ID: 2:169BGPH

Oswald Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name:   Oswald Kirkpatrick
Gender:   Male
Christening Date:   04 Sep 1820
Christening Place:   , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date:   29 Aug 1820
Father's Name:   Thomas Kirkpatrick
Mother's Name:   Janet Kerr
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11821-8 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067961 , Reference ID: 2:161JW0D

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Flash, Dumfries, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
First name(s)   Last name   Gender   Age   Birth year   Birth place   
Thomas   Kirkpatrick   Male   50   1791   Dumfriesshire, Scotland   Transcription
Jannet   Kirkpatrick   Female   50   1791   Dumfriesshire, Scotland   Transcription
Margret Kirkpatrick   Female   21   1820   Dumfriesshire, Scotland   Transcription
Oswald   Kirkpatrick   Male   18   1823   Dumfriesshire, Scotland   Transcription
Thomas   Kirkpatrick   Male   16   1825   Dumfriesshire, Scotland   Transcription
Jean   Kirkpatrick   Female   19   1822   Dumfriesshire, Scotland   Transcription
John   Kirkpatrick   Male   7   1834   Dumfriesshire, Scotland

Norma

[Bluebike1]

Norma,

where did you get the kirkpartrick information?  I am sure I searched OPR and CRP on scotland's people with no luck. 

oh and bridget walls/ mckewan - John walls sr wife and the children in edinburgh, is that 1941 census?

I am sure that Lauerence Wells the pig dealer on John Wells death certificate is a mistake made by the informant John Sanders, the son in law. I think he remembered Lawrence the pig dealer who married Martha K and died 9 years earlier.      My feeling is John and Laurence were brothers so Michael was John's father.

[wattnb]

I found the info for the Kirkpatricks on www.familysearch.org


Surname       First name(s)       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born
WALLS         Bridget         F         60         Lodging Keeper          Ireland
WALLS         Robert         M         25         Agricultural Labourer          Outside Census County (1841)
WALLS         Rosan         F         15                   Outside Census County (1841)
WALLS         Agnes         F         5                   Midlothian
WHITE         Janet         F         34         Washer          Midlothian
LOWRY         Janet         F         17         Not Known          Midlothian
RUSSELL         Ellen         F         19         Not Known          Midlothian
EDMOND         Jean         F         2                   Midlothian
WALLS         Bridget         F         17         Not Known          Outside Census County (1841)
Norma