Author Topic: Please help me date and restore old Welsh Ambrotype  (Read 7173 times)

Offline arevans777

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Please help me date and restore old Welsh Ambrotype
« on: Tuesday 09 February 10 11:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi. This is a photograph of a photograph that was inset into a tea box behind a plate of glass. It cannot be removed or scanned without destroying the box. It is said to be my grandfather's ancestors. A rather scary lot! They were carpenters and joiners, so possibly made the box themselves. The photograph may have been taken in the Swansea/Llanelli area of Wales (if earlier) or Liverpool (if later).

Please help me to date it.  And any estimates as to the ages of the subjects would be appreciated.
Evans/Llanneli - Quine/IoM - Birkett/Lancs - Holmes/Lancs - Tod/Moffat - Daniel/Bideford
Robins/London - Waddingham/Hull - Ward/St Helens - McGuire/Longford - Murphy/Cork

Offline jim1

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 09 February 10 16:47 GMT (UK) »
The picture isn't behind the glass,it is the glass.This is called an Ambrotype,an image directly onto a glass plate therefore in reverse as you can see by the younger man's waistcoat.The younger woman is in the style of early to mid 1860's but as she doesn't have the full crinoline would put this a bit later at mid - late 1860's,also she doesn't appear to be wearing a wedding ring (right hand in this) so brother,sister & parents probably.
Parents look in their 50's while the young man looks mid 20's & sister a bit older.

jim
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline jim1

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 09 February 10 17:03 GMT (UK) »
This how they would have been posed.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline chinakay

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 09 February 10 17:58 GMT (UK) »
Ooooh, what a fabulous photo!!

I'm thinking maaaybe a little earlier than Jim's estimate because of the young woman's hairstyle...the younger ladies started wearing hair back from the ears around 1865. Her skirt may be squashed in a bit and that's why it doesn't seem like there's a big crinoline under it...

Just a note on the pose...ambrotypes were not processed off a negative, this is actually the negative we are seeing, treated so it looks like a positive. But it's still a reversed image. What seems like the girl's right hand in the original is as you can see in Jim's version, actually her left hand, clearly bereft of wedding ring...

Persons of the opposite sex did not touch, in photos or everyday life, so if they are photographed with an arm around someone like this, they are related. this is definitely a group of parents and children.

The photo has been hand coloured.

I'll be watching for restores with great interest...again, a wonderful photo and you are very, very lucky to have it. Take great care with it :)

Cheers,
China
Moore/Paterson~Montreal
Moore/Addison~New Brunswick
Jubb/Kerr~Mirfield~Halifax~Moffatt
Williams~Dolwyddelan

King~Bedfordshire~Hull
Jenkins~Somerset
Sellers~Hull


Offline chinakay

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 09 February 10 17:59 GMT (UK) »
Don't the brother and sister look alike! And they take after mama, not papa :D
Moore/Paterson~Montreal
Moore/Addison~New Brunswick
Jubb/Kerr~Mirfield~Halifax~Moffatt
Williams~Dolwyddelan

King~Bedfordshire~Hull
Jenkins~Somerset
Sellers~Hull

Offline arevans777

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 09 February 10 18:57 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for your comments.  I'm thrilled that it is such an early photograph.

Given the dates, I'm almost certain I can now identify the subjects.

From the 1861 census: Living at 39 Upper William Street, Llanelly:

Parents: Edward Evans b1804, Sarah Evans (nee Owens) b1799, and children Jane Evans  b1835 and David Evans b1833.
The eldest son of Edward and Sarah Evans was William Evans b1831, my great great grandfather, who moved from Llanelli
to Liverpool in the mid 1850's. Perhaps the tea box was a present sent from his parents in Wales during the 1860's as a keepsake.
Evans/Llanneli - Quine/IoM - Birkett/Lancs - Holmes/Lancs - Tod/Moffat - Daniel/Bideford
Robins/London - Waddingham/Hull - Ward/St Helens - McGuire/Longford - Murphy/Cork

Offline chinakay

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 09 February 10 19:19 GMT (UK) »
Quite likely them, seems to fit.

Interesting jewel Jane is wearing at her neck...looks like a cameo.

Don't you just love the tablecloth hanging up as a backdrop...I think awkward little touches like that make early photos very precious.

Just a little note for your family history in general...in census returns Certain Young Women Of A Dubious Repute, shall we say, often called themselves "dressmakers"... :) I hasten to add, of course, that there were many, many actual dressmakers about :) In fact, before ready-made clothing came along there was likely a dressmaker on every street. Some clothes were constructed with gussets sewn into the seams, so the dress could be let out as the wearer grew. One social convention that kept dressmakers busy was the mourning customs. Since a woman who lost a mate or other family member was obliged to go into mourning immediately, she usually trotted her entire wardrobe into the garden and simmered every item in horrible black dye. Then when the mourning period was over, she had to replace every dress. In addition to that, dress was a statement of social status and every woman of any means liked to keep up with the latest trend.

So your Jane was likely a busy woman :)

Cheers,
China
Moore/Paterson~Montreal
Moore/Addison~New Brunswick
Jubb/Kerr~Mirfield~Halifax~Moffatt
Williams~Dolwyddelan

King~Bedfordshire~Hull
Jenkins~Somerset
Sellers~Hull

Offline arevans777

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 11 February 10 09:11 GMT (UK) »
Any attempts to clean, enhance and/or colour would be very much appreciated.
Evans/Llanneli - Quine/IoM - Birkett/Lancs - Holmes/Lancs - Tod/Moffat - Daniel/Bideford
Robins/London - Waddingham/Hull - Ward/St Helens - McGuire/Longford - Murphy/Cork

Offline arevans777

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Re: Please help me date
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 11 February 10 21:45 GMT (UK) »
It's really okay, restorers. These people won't rise from their graves and suck your blood. Promise.
Evans/Llanneli - Quine/IoM - Birkett/Lancs - Holmes/Lancs - Tod/Moffat - Daniel/Bideford
Robins/London - Waddingham/Hull - Ward/St Helens - McGuire/Longford - Murphy/Cork