Author Topic: Brickwall - help needed please  (Read 3879 times)

Offline Lisa1975

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Brickwall - help needed please
« on: Saturday 06 February 10 11:39 GMT (UK) »
Hi, i have posted this previously on the beginners board but thought i'd have another go on the Lancashire board as well :)

This is my original thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,397187.0.html

My brickwall is my Husband's Great Grandfather William Carney.

This the information i have on him so far

Born - approx 1872 (based on his age at marriage and death) place unknown
Fathers name  William (as per the marriage cert) Fathers occupation - Coachman
Married: Emily Trevena - 15th October 1921 at Birkenhead Registry office - aged 48 - Emily was 37 - witnesses to the marriage were Emily's Half Brother and Sister
Address at time of marriage - 57 Egerton Street, New Brighton
Occupation - Bricksetter/Labourer
Death - Mill Road Hospital - 14th February 1928
Address at the time of death - 35 Orphan Road, Liverpool

William and Emily had one child, a daughter called Winifred born 1923 in Liverpool

I have no idea at all where William was born. He died when his daughter was 5 years old and she had no memory of her Father and there are no photographs of him or anything else that belongs to him that could identify his place of of birth, in the family..

I have contacted the Liverpool Record Office to see if the admission registers for Mill Road hospital for 1927/28 are available or if the Creed registers would hold any information regarding his place of birth and am waiting to hear back

Any suggestions as to how i can trace William's place of birth would be great as i don't really have the patience to wait until the 1921 census is released :)
Hall/Dickins/Dickens/Griffin family - Stewkley, Bucks
West family - Grays/Hockley/Horndon, Essex
Berning family - Germany/London
Trevena family - Liverpool/Wirral
Kipling/Johnson family - Hull
Carney family - Congleton, Liverpool, Galway
Gill family - London
Le Prevost, Cohu,Mahy, Brehaut and Robin families - Guernsey

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Cancan

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 06 February 10 16:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

Have you tried Directories,

took a look at Gore's Directory of Liverpool and Birkenhead 1900, Alphabetical listing for Carney's but nothing really stands out in occupations.

Maybe someone has a later edition?

Good Luck!!

Cancan
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Offline Lisa1975

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 06 February 10 17:03 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Cancan :)

Is there anywhere online to search the directories between 1900 and 1928 ?

Another forum member advised me there is a William Corny (transcribed incorrectly, as it's actually spelt as Carny on the census) on the 1911 living in Birkenhead (born Congleton, Cheshire) and his occupation is a Masons Labourer  so the age, occupation and location fits but i can't find this William with a father called William on any other census

I know that "my" William was living at 57 Egerton Street, New Brighton at the time of his marriage and on the 1911 census, Emily's Step Sister Mary was living at that address with her Husband and children so i wonder if there is a way to trace from the directories, who was living there after 1911 and if it was still Mary etc, maybe William was lodging with them.

Thanks again for your help. I feel one more step closer to solving the mystery :)
Hall/Dickins/Dickens/Griffin family - Stewkley, Bucks
West family - Grays/Hockley/Horndon, Essex
Berning family - Germany/London
Trevena family - Liverpool/Wirral
Kipling/Johnson family - Hull
Carney family - Congleton, Liverpool, Galway
Gill family - London
Le Prevost, Cohu,Mahy, Brehaut and Robin families - Guernsey

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Lisa1975

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 06 February 10 17:19 GMT (UK) »
Duplicated post
Hall/Dickins/Dickens/Griffin family - Stewkley, Bucks
West family - Grays/Hockley/Horndon, Essex
Berning family - Germany/London
Trevena family - Liverpool/Wirral
Kipling/Johnson family - Hull
Carney family - Congleton, Liverpool, Galway
Gill family - London
Le Prevost, Cohu,Mahy, Brehaut and Robin families - Guernsey

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Sandgrounder1

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 06 February 10 23:23 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I have looked at various records and see what you are up against!

The 1911, as you said in your post, has a William Corny (but the original looks like Carny).  He was 41 and a mason's labourer but I'm sure it's him as he is listed as single, and you said he was a bachelor when he married in 1921.  There probably weren't many bachelors aged in their 40's in those days.
It says he was born in Congleton, but he may not have known his exact place of birth.  His earlier family may have been from Congleton.   There was only one other person, Caroline Williams, head, widow, charwoman, born Yorkshire, so unlikely to be related.
There are 2 births in Birkenhead -
March Q 1870 8a 494
 sept Q 1870 8a 446
both for William Carney.

It might be worth ringing Birkenhead register office explaining your predicament and asking that if you sent the appropriate fee would they only send a certificate if the father was William and had an occupation of coachman or similar.

Or you could ask the GRO in Southport to do a search over a period of time.  I think they do 3 years either side of a given year for arounf £10.

Also, when I was searching for one of mine, his occupation was also "coachman" (as William senior) but it turned out to be railway coaches, so don't discount railway occupations.

Good luck with your search

Sandgrounder
CONWAY, Westport, Mayo; TEALE, Salford, Manchester; GILCHRIST, Edinburgh; GRIFFITHS, East Stonehouse, Devon / Cardiff; VENNEN (and variations) Cornwall; TOY, Cornwall; ENGLAND, Cromer/Northrepps, Norfolk; LOFTUS, Cissie and Marie, Music Hall Artistes, Glasgow; PORTSWORTHY, Cornwall; SARCHFIELD, Manchester/Southport

Offline Lisa1975

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 06 February 10 23:35 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Sandgrounder :)

It's mad isn't it with all the resources we have now, i can't even find out where my Hubby's Great Grandfather was born.

The one on the 1911 census seems to fit so i'll work on that. I live in Essex and if i had a spare day or so, i'd be on my way up to Cheshire so scour the record offices :)

I put the thread on here as William lived in Liverpool with his wife and daughter from 1923 until he died in 1928. Emily then moved back to Wallasey to be nearer her family

Thanks again to everyone for your help with this. I'm really grateful
Hall/Dickins/Dickens/Griffin family - Stewkley, Bucks
West family - Grays/Hockley/Horndon, Essex
Berning family - Germany/London
Trevena family - Liverpool/Wirral
Kipling/Johnson family - Hull
Carney family - Congleton, Liverpool, Galway
Gill family - London
Le Prevost, Cohu,Mahy, Brehaut and Robin families - Guernsey

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Sandgrounder1

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 07 February 10 13:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi again

I have found a family which seem to fit (with a couple of glitches.)  See what you think...

1901
William T Carney, 30 Coachman Domestic, Single, born Warwick
lodger in Birmingham, St. Martin

1891

Catherine Carney 44 Widow born Ireland
William, 20, Bolt and Rivet maker, born Warwick
Margaret 18
Ellen 16
John 12
Edward 14
Annie 10
Kate 8
Elizabeth 4

59 High Park Road, Harborne Stafford

1881

William Carney, 37 Bricklayer's labourer, Ireland
Catherine 34, Ireland
James 12
William 10, b Birmingham
Mary 8
Ellen 6
Edward 4
John 2
Annie

12 House, Back of 65 Heath Street, Rotton (?) Park, Birmingham.


The Coachman and the bricklayer's labourer is there, albeit the wrong way round.

Birth:

Q1 1871 William Carney, Birmingham  Ref: 6d113

It might be worth a try

Sandgrounder
CONWAY, Westport, Mayo; TEALE, Salford, Manchester; GILCHRIST, Edinburgh; GRIFFITHS, East Stonehouse, Devon / Cardiff; VENNEN (and variations) Cornwall; TOY, Cornwall; ENGLAND, Cromer/Northrepps, Norfolk; LOFTUS, Cissie and Marie, Music Hall Artistes, Glasgow; PORTSWORTHY, Cornwall; SARCHFIELD, Manchester/Southport

Offline Lisa1975

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 07 February 10 14:54 GMT (UK) »
Thanks again Sandgrounder :) I really appreciate the time you've spent on this for me.

I've spent most of today going through the BMD for all Carneys/Carnys etc born in Congleton around the time of William's birth, then tracing them on the census records for parents names. So far, none have a Father called William so that kind of rules Congleton out as a place of birth for my William unless he was an only child and they moved just after he was born.

Going with the Staffordshire/Warwickshire link you've found as well as the occupations fitting to a degree, there is also the fact that the Father William died between 1881-1891 and on my William's marriage cert, his Father was deceased.

The thing that is niggling me is how will i prove that this William is the right one as without the 1921 census that would confirm his place of birth, hopefully if he was still living at Egerton Street at the time the census was taken (he married Emily in the October) or if i am able to get to look at the admission registers from Mill Road Hospital that would hopefully have his date of birth, it's all guesswork :(


Hall/Dickins/Dickens/Griffin family - Stewkley, Bucks
West family - Grays/Hockley/Horndon, Essex
Berning family - Germany/London
Trevena family - Liverpool/Wirral
Kipling/Johnson family - Hull
Carney family - Congleton, Liverpool, Galway
Gill family - London
Le Prevost, Cohu,Mahy, Brehaut and Robin families - Guernsey

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Lisa1975

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Re: Brickwall - help needed please
« Reply #8 on: Monday 08 February 10 21:02 GMT (UK) »
Me again :)

I found out today from my Mother-in-Law that William apparently worked on the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool during the 20's so i have emailed the Archivist at the Cathedral to see if they have any records that would confirm this.
Hall/Dickins/Dickens/Griffin family - Stewkley, Bucks
West family - Grays/Hockley/Horndon, Essex
Berning family - Germany/London
Trevena family - Liverpool/Wirral
Kipling/Johnson family - Hull
Carney family - Congleton, Liverpool, Galway
Gill family - London
Le Prevost, Cohu,Mahy, Brehaut and Robin families - Guernsey

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk