South Wales Borderers pre WW1

[GrenPen]

Yes Steve, it is a memorial rather than graves and tombstones.
The following men have "age unknown", but I have been able to find what appears to be their birth year, according to the 1911 Census, when the 1st Battalion was in the district of Medway (at Chatham), and the 2nd Battalion was in the "County" of "Overseas Military" (at Pretoria)

Service No   Birth   Name
4622   1878   MORRIS, FREDERICK, F
6212   1882   SYKES, ALFRED JOHN, A J
6228   1878   SMITH, ERNEST WILLIAM, E W
6269   1889   HANDS, JOHN, J
6513   1881   HOOPER, EDGAR CHARLES, E C
6833   1879   MORTIN, ERNEST, E
7080   1888   GARDNER, JOHN, J
7813   1891   ROGERS, EDWARD, E
7827   1889   DYKES, THOMAS, T     
7885   1878   ALLEN, THOMAS WILLIAM, T W     
7924   1886   PRICE, WILLIAM ARTHUR, W A
8061   1886   INSKIP, ROBERT, R
8196   1892   O'CONNOR, THOMAS, T
8234   1884   JORDAN, GEORGE OSCAR, G O
8292   1872   LYNCH, HUGH, H
8463   1890   ROGERS, FREDERICK, F
8553   1886   LEWIS, EDWARD JOHN, E J
8669   1889   COLE, HARRY, H     
8718   1888   NICHOLLS, FREDERICK, F
8740   1885   HOWCROFT, HENRY, H
9019   1884   WESTON, HERBERT, H
9124   1883   PACKHAM, CHARLES ALFRED, C A
9255   1886   MOSS, CHARLES HENRY, C H
9390   1889   SCOTT, WALTER WILLIAM, W W
9485   1889   YEND, JAMES, J
9668   1886   GOLDSMITH, GEORGE, G
9857   1889   MAYERSBETH, ROBERT, R
10046   1872   KYLE, ALEXANDER WILLIAM, A W

[GrenPen]

Also can anyone let me know the whereabouts of the 2nd Battalion in the period 1901-14.

Would it also be possible to know the whereabouts of the 1st Battalion during the same period, please. I think I saw something about the 1st having been in Malta in 1914

[km1971]

The 1st Battalion SWB embarked for India from Gibraltar on 22 November 1897. They arrived back in Chatham in December 1910. They moved to Bordon (Hamspshire) in September 1913 and were there for the start of WW1. They may have stopped off in Malta on the way back from India in 1910.

If you contact the SWB museum they may have a revised ‘Historical Records’ which should tell you chapter and verse how many men moved where, and when. Regiments were ordered to produce these at the start of Victoria’s reign and some regiments produced updates every 30-40 years up to WW1.

Ken

[GrenPen]

Thanks Ken. Once I  have exhausted my list of leads, I shall write a letter to the museum.

The battalion diary for the period 15 Sept 1914 to 02 Oct (or thereabouts) has been put online, which is an interesting read.
http://www.1914-1918.net/swb.htm

There were two other ranks, and two officers, which were buried at Vendresse, in addition to the missing men lisyed above.
COKER, JOHN CADWALLADER, J C     Lieutenant        26/09/14   27   
JOHNSON, MERVYN TAYLOR, M T     Lieutenant        14/09/14   28   
MEREDITH, GEORGE HENRY, G H     Private    8558   18/09/14   27   "C " Coy. 1st Bn.
PETTIT, CHARLES GEORGE, C G     Private    9449   26/09/14   27   

[GrenPen]

Hi Steve, thought you may find this interesting.

The 1st Division diaries are a compilation of all the battalion diaries. In addition to the diary for the month of September, there is an annex to the September diary; a report on the Battle of the Aisne. Below is a transcript of this. It is a very small part of the four years of diaries:

The ridge of a wooded hill, at the head of a valley (south of the village) is where 1st Battn South Wales Borderers were entrenched. The village of 02160 Vendresse-Beaulne is located south of Laon, and east of Soissons.

--------------------------------

Battle of the Aisne report:

On morning of 14 Sept, the 1st SWB marching from BOURG arrived at xroads 1/4 mile south of Vendresse & halted for about 1/2 hour there, before receiving orders to reinforce the left flank of Vendresse ridge. The battn had no had no sooner left xroads when it came under shell fire and eventually reached the fir wood at the S.W. corner of Vendresse ridge - from there it was ordered to attack the ridge about 3/4 mile due north of CHIVY, i.e. in a northerly direction & carry on the line of the Black Watch who were in front.

The furthest point reached at this stage was CHIVY village and the wood to the west of it, the Black Watch in the mean time moving off to our right front  - The battn being unable to advance further owing to enemy fire & casualties, held the line of the BEAULNE-CHIVY road that is facing NNW. Towards evening the Battn was ordered to advance to the CHEMIN DES DAMES road directing on tee CHE of CHEMIN route, the Welsh Regt on our left moving up the valley, and the Guards Brigade on our right.

The 1st S.W.B. were therefore re-organised in and near the fir wood above mentioned and commenced the advance about 5.30p.m. & came under heavy artillery fire - the 2 leading Coys reached the ridge 140 yards from the point given without opposition & remained there for the night facing north with the Welsh quite close on their left - several of the enemy surrendered to them during the night - the other 2 Coys & HQ reached a point more to the right about 500 yards south of the CHEMIN-DES-DAMES with their right on the CHIVY-CERNY track, and were attacked very soon after arrival - As it was dark before reaching this point these Coys entrenched themselves at this point, one Coy on each side of the track, the left Coy facing north and the other north northeast. This position was held for the next six days  with the other 2 Coys on their left, thrown back.

[GrenPen]

The 1st Battalion SWB embarked for India from Gibraltar on 22 November 1897. They arrived back in Chatham in December 1910. They moved to Bordon (Hampshire) in September 1913 and were there for the start of WW1.

Below is a breakout of the service of the 1st Battalion whilst in India
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78081

[Old Bristolian]

Thanks for all the info & excerpt from the War Diary. Frank Flexney was in fact killed on the 26th September during a surprise attack at dawn on a quarry position the Borderers had occupied, at the top of a ridge overlooking Vendresse. I've read the Official Regimental History & it gives quite a vivid picture of the engagement - the Germans were beaten off with heavy losses - the men were taken completely by surprise as the enemy attacked uphill under the cover of morning mist - several Borderers even fought with their eating utensils - they were presumably having breakfast!

I have visited the site (& the nearby military graveyard). Its difficult to recognize the action now as the valley is mostly open field & the ridge wooded - completely the opposite of the situation in 1914. I spoke to the local farmer & he said he had quite a few visitors to the site - but mostly German. I was lucky in collecting some poppies from the field where my great uncle died, which have to serve in the place of any photograph of him

Steve

[GrenPen]

Hi Steve,

Here is a map with the dispositions of the South Wales Borderers on 17 Sept 1914.

I've also been able to find a map of the dispositions as at 22 Sept 1914, with the Borderers positioned north of Chivy and Vendresse.

Regards

[GrenPen]

His service record does not appear to have survived WW2 bombing. All you can really do is to research when 8548 was issued, either at the SWB museum or on the Great War Forum. Once you have his enlistment date, even approximately, you should be able to work out the type of service he had enlisted under.

HI Steve,
I've been in the same situation as you, and although there have been less trials and more errors, this is what I'd recommend doing:

1. Do searches on the National Archives Medal Roll search engine. Use "South Wales Borderers" as Corps, and "854*" as a keyword. Write down in numeric order the numbers and the names.
2. Work down the list with the following:
   a. Do searches on the Service Records
   b. Do searches on the Pension Records
   c. If nothing was found, check the medal cards to see if "SWB List" appears.
       If you see the likes of "SWB List J/1876/1", jot this down
3. Keep doing this for as many groups of 10 numbers until you are satisfied with the results.

What is the significance with SWB List? The Silver War Badge list will record the enlistment date, and this will allow you to narrow the date range in which your ancestor joined up.

The SWB lists are at Kew; the corresponding reference for the entry above is WO 329/3097

I have been very lucky in finding the service record (in the pension database in Ancestry) of a man who enlisted on the same date (I believe) and in the same location as George Goldsmith. In fact, I suspect the two of them joined up together.

Medal Roll Card data:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=10

WO 363 # British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1219

WO 364 # British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1114

Best of luck
GP