South Wales Borderers pre WW1

[Old Bristolian]

My great uncle, Francis William Flexney was killed at the Battle of the Aisne in September 1914. He was serving in the 1st Bt, South Wales Borderers. He had previously served in the Regiment, but in 1914 was a reservist. I had assumed his previous time with SWB would have been served in the same battalion, but I think I have now found him in the 1911 Census with the second Battalion in Pretoria, South Africa. Would a reservist just be put into a battalion which needed making up to war strength, rather than in the one he had previously served in? - the 2nd were in China in 1914 I think.

Also can anyone let me know the whereabouts of the 2nd Battalion in the period 1901-14. Family stories relate that he served in India at some time in his first tour of duty

Steve

[neil1821]

Also can anyone let me know the whereabouts of the 2nd Battalion in the period 1901-14.

Certainly.
1900-04 South Africa
1904 Jun-Dec Aldershot, England
1904 (Dec) - 1906 (Oct) Tidworth, England
1906 (Oct) - 1908 (Sept) Aldershot again
1908 (Sept) - 1910 (Jan) Chatham
1910 (Jan) - 1912 (Oct) South AFrica
1912 (Oct) - 1914 (Sept) Tientsin, China
rest of 1914 Tsingtao/Hong Kong
back to UK Jan 1915

[km1971]

Hi Steve

Men enlisted in the regiment and not the battalion, so after initial training in the depot he would be sent to one or other of the two SWB regular battalions. He was always liable to be transferred to the other one, or back to the depot, as required. As a Reservist he was obviously posted to the one stationed at home, rather than to the one in China. The Reserves were recalled to fight against Germany after all.

His medal index card is on Ancestry. He is Private 8548 Frank W Flexney. He landed in France 13 August 1914. There is a note saying that the officer in charge of records was requesting permission to dispose of his medals, dated 30 June 1922. They would have tried to deliver them to the last address they had for his family. They would then have been sent to Woolwich and re-cycled 10 years later.

His service record does not appear to have survived WW2 bombing. All you can really do is to research when 8548 was issued, either at the SWB museum or on the Great War Forum. Once you have his enlistment date, even approximately, you should be able to work out the type of service he had enlisted under.

http://www.1914-1918.net/swb.htm

You can follow the war diary link. The entry for the 26th September starts – The most ghastly day of my life and yet to one of the proudest because my Regiment did its job and held on against heavy odds.

He was one of four officers (named) and 86 men (unnamed) killed that day.

The 1st Battalion were in India until December 1910. So he may have been in the 1st Battalion and transferred to the 2nd, probably out east. Or the story of him being in India refers to the 2nd Bn passing through on the way to China.

Ken

[km1971]

There is a short entry for him in De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour, 1914-1924, available on Ancestry giving just basic information.

Ken

[Old Bristolian]

Thanks Neil & Ken

The information you have provided answers all my questions - it looks like he either transferred battalions at some time or the "India service" family story is possibly a mistake. I have to admit my grandmother's sense of geography wasn't all it should have been - she told me she would have liked to visit her brothers' graves in France (both her brothers were killed in the war) but didn't realise she would have to cross the sea!

I have seen most of the documents you give - an interesting point about the medals, as I thought I had seen them as a child, so perhaps the family did claim them at some time. Frank is commemorated on the memorial at St Ferte sous Jouarre as one of the killed/missing of the Aisne with no known grave. I have, however, visited the site of the battle of 26th September 1914 and there is a small cemetery with several SWB graves with no identifacation, so I feel he must be buried there.

The 1911 Census gives him as Henry Flexney - correct age & the place of birth.although garbled (R--land, Bristol, Glam) looks possible. I don't know of any other Flexney that this could be

Steve

[GrenPen]

Hi Steve,
I've been trying to trace further details of a friend's relative who was also in the First Battalion, South Wales Borderers. His name is George Henry Goldsmith. The Ancestry.com records imply he joined up in Stratford, and his address (as shown on the Bethnal Green memorial's Roll of Honour) was 92 Gosset Street, Bethnal Green.

His service record was destroyed, so I do not know when he joined. I have seen that a George Joseph Walter Atkinson joined on 21 January 1907 (S/N 9508), and from Clapton a Montague Solomon joined on 20 September (S/N 9717). Given that my relative's number is 9668, I'm working on the assumption that he joined around August 1907.

[GrenPen]

Below is a list of the other ranks buried at La Ferte Sous Jouarte who were in the South Wales Borderers

This information has been taken from the CWGC website



Name                            Rank       S/N     Date Of Death    Age
ABRAHAMS, RICHARD, R     Private    7201   18/09/14   36
ADAMS, CHARLES, C     Private    7272   26/09/14   Unknown
ALLEN, THOMAS WILLIAM, T W     Lance Corporal    7885   21/09/14   Unknown
AYLWIN, FREDERICK JAMES, F J     Private    8111   26/09/14   28
BAGGIN, RICHARD, R     Private    8252   26/09/14   Unknown
BELCHER, ARTHUR, A     Private    7815   26/09/14   33
BINNING, HERBERT, H     Private    10303   26/09/14   Unknown
BISHOP, LEONARD NEWMAN, L N     Private    9416   26/09/14   28
BRADLEY, HENRY CHARLES, H C     Private    8734   27/09/14   26
BUFTON, WILLIAM ARTHUR, W A     Serjeant    8739   26/09/14   26
BURKE, THOMAS, T     Private    7424   19/09/14   32
BUTT, OWEN, O     Private    9234   26/09/14   Unknown
CLARK, THOMAS JOHN, T J     Lance Corporal    8114   26/09/14   28
CLIFFORD, WILLIAM THOMAS, W T     Lance Serjeant    7975   18/09/14   28
COCKLIN, JAMES, J     Private    8811   18/09/14   27
COLE, HARRY, H     Lance Corporal    8669   16/09/14   Unknown
COLTMAN, ARCHIBALD, A     Private    8429   16/09/14   28
COOK, EDWARD JOHN, E J     Private    8161   26/09/14   32
COULSON, GEORGE, G     Corporal    8821   15/09/14   28
CUNNINGHAM, WILLIAM, W     Private    8700   26/09/14   27
DANIELS, ROBERT, R     Private    7229   26/09/14   Unknown
DAVIES, CLIFFORD JEFFREY, C J     Private    10854   26/09/14   Unknown
DICKINSON, HERBERT, H     Private    6396   26/09/14   Unknown
DUMPER, FRANK HENRY, F H     Private    7887   04/10/14   Unknown
DUNN, THOMAS, T     Private    10869   26/09/14   Unknown
DYKES, THOMAS, T     Private    7827   14/10/14   Unknown
ELLIOTT, EDWIN WILLIAM, E W     Private    13097   26/09/14   37
ELMORE, ALFRED, A     Private    10905   26/09/14   Unknown
FIELDING, THOMAS, T     Private    8391   26/09/14   29
FISH, ROBERT JOSEPH, R J     Private    10995   26/09/14   Unknown
FLEXNEY, FRANK WILLIAM, F W     Private    8548   26/09/14   30
FORKNALL, JAMES, J     Private    9114   26/09/14   33
FRANKLIN, WILFRED NOEL, W N     Private    8115   26/09/14   28
GANE, FREDERICK, F    Private   10731   15/10/14   19
GARDNER, JOHN, J    Private   7080   26/09/14   Unknown
GEOGHAN, WILLIAM, W    Private   9003   26/09/14   Unknown
GERRARD, WALTER, W    Private   8091   26/09/14   28
GOLDSMITH, GEORGE, G    Lance Corporal   9668   18/09/14   Unknown
GOLDSTONE, CHARLES EDWARD, C E    Private   10661   14/09/14   Unknown
GRACE, THOMAS, T    Private   11080   17/09/14   Unknown
HANDS, JOHN, J    Private   6269   26/09/14   Unknown
HARDING, CHARLES ARTHUR GEORGE, C A G    Private   7936   16/09/14   30
HARDY, ALFRED, A    Private   7918   19/09/14   28
HARRIS, ERNEST, E    Private   8380   16/09/14   28
HARRIS, WILLIAM, W    Private   11722   24/09/14   Unknown
HOOPER, EDGAR CHARLES, E C    Private   6513   26/09/14   Unknown
HOWCROFT, HENRY, H    Private   8740   27/09/14   Unknown
HUFTON, ROBERT BARRAND, R B    Private   7836   15/09/14   32
INSKIP, ROBERT, R    Private   8061   26/09/14   Unknown
JENKINS, LEONARD, L    Lance Corporal   7814   03/10/14   30
JENNINGS, HENRY, H    Private   11773   01/10/14   Unknown
JONES, GWILYM GEORGE, G G    Lance Corporal   10939   14/09/14   Unknown
JORDAN, GEORGE OSCAR, G O    Private   8234   26/09/14   Unknown
KILEY, THOMAS, T    Private   11081   26/09/14   22
KYLE, ALEXANDER WILLIAM, A W    Private   10046   18/09/14   Unknown
LAWTON, WILLIAM JOHN, W J    Private   8378   26/09/14   34
LEE, SIDNEY, S    Private   10767   19/09/14   21
LEWIS, DAVID JOHN, D J    Private   7904   27/09/14   30
LEWIS, EDWARD JOHN, E J    Lance Corporal   8553   13/10/14   Unknown
LEWIS, PERCY, P    Private   9652   17/09/14   21
LYNCH, HUGH, H    Private   8292   26/09/14   Unknown
MANCEY, ALBERT GEORGE, A G    Private   9353   26/09/14   25
MAYERSBETH, ROBERT, R    Lance Corporal   9857   26/08/14   Unknown
MILLS, GEORGE HENRY THOMAS, G H T    Private   8788   18/09/14   27
MILLS, WILLIAM, W    Private   10984   20/09/14   20
MINON, DANIEL, D    Private   8188   26/09/14   Unknown
MORRIS, FREDERICK, F    Private   4622   26/09/14   Unknown
MORTIN, ERNEST, E    Private   6833   19/09/14   Unknown
MOSS, CHARLES HENRY, C H    Lance Corporal   9255   25/09/14   Unknown
NICHOLLS, FREDERICK, F    Private   8718   18/09/14   Unknown

[GrenPen]

Name                            Rank       S/N     Date Of Death    Age
O'CONNOR, THOMAS, T    Private   8196   26/09/14   Unknown
O'NEIL, JOHN, J    Private   11331   28/09/14   Unknown
O'NEILL, JAMES, J    Private   9386   26/09/14   28
PACKHAM, CHARLES ALFRED, C A    Private   9124   26/09/14   Unknown
PARKER, GILBERT, G    Private   8242   26/09/14   27
PERKS, WILLIAM EDWARD, W E    Private   8189   26/09/14   Unknown
PITT, HILO, H    Serjeant   7800   26/09/14   Unknown
POWELL, THOMAS WILLIAM, T W    Private   8534   28/09/14   31
POWER, JOHN, J    Private   8353   26/09/14   31
PRICE, WILLIAM ARTHUR, W A    Private   7924   18/09/14   Unknown
PROBERT, PERCY, P    Private   11037   14/09/14   Unknown
PROUSE, JOHN, J    Lance Corporal   11093   19/09/14   Unknown
REACH, THOMAS EDWARD, T E    Private   8180   26/09/14   30
RHODES, JOHN ALICK, J A    Private   9371   18/09/14   25
RINGHAM, ROBERT, R    Private   9368   26/09/14   28
ROBBINS, JOSEPH, J    Private   6901   26/09/14   32
ROBERTS, ARTHUR, A    Private   10709   26/09/14   24
ROBINSON, MATTHEW, M    Private   6453   26/09/14   36
ROGERS, EDWARD, E    Private   7813   14/10/14   Unknown
ROGERS, FREDERICK, F    Private   8463   18/09/14   Unknown
ROLFE, GEORGE JAMES, G J    Private   9242   26/09/14   27
SCOTT, WALTER WILLIAM, W W    Private   9390   18/09/14   Unknown
SCURLOCK, ERNEST GEORGE, E G    Private   11779   26/09/14   29
SEAR, ALBERT WALTER, A W    Private   7361   26/09/14   29
SHEA, FRANK, F    Private   10331   26/09/14   24
SMITH, ERNEST WILLIAM, E W    Lance Corporal   6228   24/09/14   Unknown
SMITH, WILLIAM FREDERICK, W F    Private   8759   26/09/14   27
SPINK, THOMAS JAMES, T J    Private   8720   26/09/14   27
SYKES, ALFRED JOHN, A J    Serjeant   6212   26/09/14   Unknown
TAYLOR, ROBERT, R    Private   8662   18/09/14   Unknown
THOMAS, DAVID, D    Private   8261   26/09/14   42
THOMAS, WILLIAM, W    Private   8037   18/09/14   34
TUCKER, WILLIAM, W    Private   8432   04/10/14   31
WAINSCOTT, WALTER JOSEPH, W J    Private   8550   15/09/14   37
WALKER, EDWARD WILLIAM, E W    Lance Corporal   7443   26/09/14   27
WARD, FREDERICK THOMAS, F T    Private   8018   26/09/14   Unknown
WATERHOUSE, GEORGE FREDERICK, G F    Lance Corporal   10863   26/09/14   Unknown
WELSH, WILLIAM, W    Private   11726   24/09/14   32
WESTON, HERBERT, H    Lance Corporal   9019   26/09/14   Unknown
WHITMEY, CHARLES BENJAMIN, C B    Private   9373   26/09/14   26
WILLIAMS, GEORGE, G    Private   8023   26/09/14   29
WILLIAMS, JOHN HENRY, J H    Private   7861   19/09/14   31
WORKMAN, ROBERT, R    Private   8708   26/09/14   30
YEND, JAMES, J    Private   9485   26/09/14   Unknown

[Old Bristolian]

Thanks for the list - I think though that none of these individuals is buried at La Ferte - the monument is a memorial to all the British soldiers missing presumed killed from the batlles of Mons, Le Cateau, the Marne & the Aisne

Steve