Query on Birth Registration - Hugh TUNNEY (1840 to 1856!)

[Alison Smith (nee Hargreaves)]

I've been tracing my FH for many years, but recently have reason to ask the following question regarding the registration of a birth...

Would it be possible for a baby to be born, but have his birth registered somewhere completely different?

I am tracking my husband's ancestors - surname TUNNEY - from the Liverpool area.  Hugh TUNNEY (sometimes TUNNY or TUNEY) was born about 1842 - ish!

On the 1851 census his birth place was given as Bilston, Staffs (aged 11)
On the 1861 census his birth place was given as Stafford (aged 19)
Unable to find him on the 1871 census
On the 1881 census his birth place was given as Liverpool (aged 38)
He marries as a widower in 1883 - age given on the M Cert as 32!!
On the 1891 census his birth place was given as Staffordshire (aged 38!)
On the 1901 census his birth place was given as Bilson, Staffs (aged 50)

Hugh dies in 1910 in the Toxteth Park District, age given as 54!

This gives a possible birth year between 1840 and 1856!

For starters, I think I have to take the ages he gives with a pinch of salt (seeing as when he married in 1883 his new wife was only 18 and he already had at least 6 children with first wife Anne), but I am unable to find any Hugh Tunney (or other spelling) born in the Staffordshire area between 1840 and 1857, but I do find two Hugh's in the Liverpool District, one in 1842 and the other in 1845.

His father was also Hugh Tunney, a labourer, and according to the different census, children were born in Ireland, Scotland, Birmingham and Liverpool (as well as Staffs)!

If the family were in the process of moving from one place to another, is it feasible that Hugh's birth registration could have been done in Liverpool, even if he HAD been born in Staffs?

Has anyone else ever come across this conundrum?? 

Thanks.... Alison in chilly Swindon!

[jim1]

Hello Alison
According to the 1851 census Hugh's older sister Winifred was born in next door B'ham so the family were in the Staffs./Warks. area for a few years up to Hugh's birth.
My understanding is that one had 3 months at this time to register a birth but it was only later that it became a punishable offence.
The overwhelming evidence is that Hugh was born in Bilston Staffs. 1840-42.
There doesn't appear to be a birth registered for Winifred either so he probably didn't bother at this time.

jim

[david64]

My question would be - are you sure you have the right person in the census. If the name has been misstranscribed or was spelt wrong in the first place, it may be more difficult to find them.

I had a similar issue with tracing back the name Breese, which is often spelt Breeze and was recorded/transcribed in a few instances as names quite different. To find the correct person I had to just search for the first name, age and place of birth to find the right one.

[garstonite]

Hiya Alison....having looked at the death reg for Hugh Tunney Mar Qtr 1910 this would mean if he was 54 he would have been born in 1857 unless he was born Jan Feb Mar of 1856....so ideally it only gives you TWO years to look for a Hugh Tunney birth...There are NONE on Freebmd...the census transcriptions were never spot on age wise or spelling wise but I would think the death age given as 54 to be correct....so he couldn`t have been on the 1851 census ?....
sorry to say but I don`t think Hugh Tunney who died in 1910 is  your Hugh Tunney on 1851 1861 census
and I don`t think the 1891 census tallies with the 51 and 61 Hugh Tunney....sorry but I think you have 2 different men.... ..........allan

[Little Nell]

There are several problems highlighted here - well, I think so.

1. Not all births were registered at that date.  The fine for non-registration was only introduced in 1875.  From the same date penalties were introduced for late registration (i.e. more than 42 days after the birth).
2. Mistakes might have been made on census by the enumerator unable to read what the householder had written or by him making an incorrect assumption.
3. The information on the death certificate as to age is only as good as the knowledge of the person giving that information.  If the deceased lied to that person, confusion is likely to ensue.
4. Incorrect transcription of the name.

Of course, he might have decided to change his name..................... 

Nell

[Alison Smith (nee Hargreaves)]

Thanks to you all for your interesting theories and suggestions....  I'm 99% convinced that the Hugh Tunney on the difference census is the same man - please see the following transcripts (I have ommited lodgers):

1851 Census:  35 Brick Street, Liverpool, Lancs  (Transcribed as TURNEY)
Hugh TUNNEY    Head    Marr    55    Dock Lab.                           b:  Ireland
Mary TUNNEY   Wife    Marr       45                                                b:  Ireland
Bridget TUNNEY   Dau               22    Laundry Maid                    b:  Ireland
Margaret TUNNEY  Dau             20    Fish Seller                         b:  Ireland
MARY TUNNEY     Dau                16     Fish Seller                         b:  Ireland
Winifred TUNNEY   Dau             14     Fish Seller                          b:  Birmingham
Hugh TUNNEY           Son          11      Scholar                              b:  Bilston, Staffordshire
Ann TUNNEY           Dau             8       Scholar                              b:  L'pool, Lancs

1861 Census:  33 Brick Street, Liverpool, Lancs  (Written as TUNNY)
Hugh TUNNY    Head    Marr    66    Dock Labourer                       b:  Ct Mayo, Ireland
Mary TUNNY   Wife   Marr    56     Housekeeper                          b:  Ct Mayo, Ireland
Mary TUNNY    Dau      Unm     25    Servant                                   b:  Scotland
Hugh TUNNY    Son      Unm     19     Striker in Smithy                   b:  Stafford
Ann TUNNY      Dau       Unm    18      Servant                                  b:  Liverpool
Wm BARRETT   Nephew          12      Scholar                                   b:  Liverpool
James TUNNY  Nephew           3        Scholar                                   b:  Liverpool

1871 Census: 33 Brick Street, Liverpool   (Transcribed as TUNEY) 
Hugh TUNNEY    Head    Marr    60      Miller                 b:  Ireland
Mary TUNNEY    Wife   Marr    50                                 b:  Ireland
?? TUNNEY        Son               13      Scholar               b:  Liverpool  (Looks like Ginley crossed out and a very faint James added)


1881 Census:  33 Brick Street, Liverpool, Lancs (Written as TUNNY)
Hugh TUNNY    Head    Marr    38    Oil Miller                             b:  Liverpool
Anne TUNNY    Wife   Marr    29                                                  b:  Liverpool
Anne TUNNY    Dau                   10     Scholar                                b:  Liverpool
James TUNNY   Son                  8       Scholar                                b:  Liverpool
Hugh TUNNY     Son                  6       Scholar                                b:  Liverpool
Thomas TUNNY   Son                5       Scholar                                b:  Liverpool
Agnes TUNNY    Dau                 3                                                    b:  Liverpool
Mary J TUNNY   Dau                6 mths                                            b:  Liverpool
Mary TUNNY   Mother   Widow  60                                               b:  Ireland

1891 Census:  30 Cooper Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Hugh TUNNEY    Head     Marr    38    Hammer...... Smith ?         b:  Staffordshire
E (sic) TUNNEY    Wife    Marr   28                                              b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Agnes TUNNEY    Dau                  11     Scholar                              b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Mary TUNNEY     Dau                   8     Scholar                               b:  Liverpool, Lancs
John TUNNEY      Son                   5                                                b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Sarah TUNNEY    Dau                   3                                                b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Richard TUNNEY    Son                4 mths                                       b:  Liverpool, Lancs

1901 Census:  2/1 New Henderson Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool   (Transcribed as TUNNY)
Hugh TUNNEY           Head     Marr    50      General Labourer               b:  Bilson, Staffs
Elizabeth TUNNEY    Wife    Marr    37      Charwoman                         b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Mary TUNNEY            Dau                   16      Charwoman                         b:  Liverpool, Lancs
John TUNNEY             Son                   14      Errand Post Boy                 b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Sarah TUNNEY           Dau                   12                                                  b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Edward TUNNEY        Son                    8                                                   b:  Liverpool, Lancs
William TUNNEY        Son                    6                                                  b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Andrew TUNNEY        Son                    2                                                   b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Francis TUNNEY         Son                   2 mths                                           b:  Liverpool, Lancs


1851-1881 must be the same family because of the address, and I know that the Hugh I have been querying was a widower when he married Elizabeth Benyon in 1883.

More to follow.......

[Alison Smith (nee Hargreaves)]

Continued....

Here is Elizabeth in 1911:

1911 Census:  55 Warwick Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Elizabeth TUNNEY    Head    Widow     47                                                 b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Mary TUNNEY           Dau       Unm        26      Rope Maker                       b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Sarah TUNNEY          Dau      Unm         22     Rope Maker                        b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Edward TUNNEY        Son      Unm         18     Trunk Maker                       b:  Liverpool, Lancs
William TUNNEY       Son      Unm         16      Trunk Maker's Apprentice   b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Andrew TUNNEY        Son                      12     School                                 b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Francis TUNNEY        Son                      10      School                                b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Elizabeth TUNNEY     Dau                      7                                                   b:  Liverpool, Lancs
Alice TUNNEY            Dau                      6                                                   b:  Liverpool, Lancs
(Census transcript shows that Elizabeth had given birth to 13 children, 4 of whom had died before 1911)

The 7 year old Elizabeth Tunney in 1911 was in actual fact the daughter of unmarried Mary (I have her birth certificate), and was put down on the census as daughter, when she should have been granddaughter!

The only Hugh Tunney I can find who died between 1901 and 1911 is the one who died in Q1 1910 in the Toxteth Park District.

Also - I find a Hugh Tunney marrying an Ann Otttaway Q4 1870 in Liverpool, and the death of an Ann Tunney in Q1 1881 aged 29, again in Liverpool.

Incidentally - I am unable to find "my" Hugh on the 1871 census - only his parents!

This has got to be the same man hasn't it?!  I love all this detective work, and this one has kept me busy for quite a while now!

Cheers!!  Alison