Northamptonshire Regiment 1898

[seahall]

Hi Nick.

Welcome to Rootschat. 

I am sure Steve or Scrimmers will be able to help soon.

Sandy

[Stebie9173]

Hello Nick.


James Rial's number of 3959 would have been issued about May/June 1893. After a few months training he would have been posted for duty with 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment who were in the UK at that time, firstly at Colchester and then at Jersey from May 1895.

Private J Rial appears in a group of photos taken at Secunderabad in late 1896 as part of a photograph of a "New Draft from England".

The records of others in the photo graph would suggest that he arrived in India in October 1896.

Whilst He may have come on a different ship I think that it is likely that he arrived aboard the SS Victoria as some of the others in the photograph did. Their postings read:

Serving with 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment at Jersey;
Posted to 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, 25-9-1896.
Embarked to India aboard S.S. Victoria, 25-9-1896.
Arrived at Bombay, 17-10-1896.
Arrived to join 1st Battalion at Secunderabad, 24-10-1896.


As you have noted he is entitled to the three medals awarded for the Tirah Campaign in late 1897:

Tirah, 1897.
Punjab Frontier, 1898
Samana, 1897

The latter clasp was not awarded to all of the battalion, but I have not figured out the exact criteria under which some of the battalion fulfilled the requirements for this clasp whilst others did not.



Attached is a picture of a section of the Draft. James Rial is 2nd from the left/5th from the right (as we look) in the attached picture according to the caption on the picture (not in the attachment).


Regards,
Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Just noticed 9 pages of Pension records on "some website"  - off to check my theories!



EDIT:

Nearly right - a few weeks out on the enlistment date, but got the ship right!


Quick summary of his service:

Previously served in the 4th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment (Militia).
Enlisted at Northampton, age 18 years, 12-7-1893.
Posted to 2nd Battalion at Colchester, 16-10-1893.
3rd Class Education Certificate, 19-9-1894.
Suffered a wound to the right leg, 19-2-1895.
Good Conduct Badge/Pay, 10-7-1895.
Suffered a wound to the forehead, 20-9-1895.
Transferred to 1st Battalion, 24-9-1896.
Embarked to India aboard S.S. Victoria, 24-9-1896.
Arrived at Bombay, 17-10-1896.
Arrived to join 1st Battalion at Secunderabad, 24-10-1896.
Took part in the Tirah Campaign, late 1897.
Entitled to the India General Service Medal with three Clasps for Tirah 1897-98, Samana 1897 & Punjab Frontier 1897-98.
Granted 2nd Good Conduct Badge/Pay, 25-5-1900.
Appointed as Unpaid Lance-Corporal, 2-1-1904.
Qualified for promotion to Cpl., 28-9-1904.
Appointed Paid Lance-Corporal, 21-10-1904.
2nd Class Education Certificate, 6-4-1905.
Extended his period of engagement from 7 years active service to 12 years whilst at Jullundur, 19-9-1905.
Promoted to Corporal, 30-10-1907.
Forfeits 2nd GC Badge, 10-2-1908.
Qualified for promotion to Sergeant, 30-3-1909.
Arrived back in England at Devonport, 15-3-1911.
James Rial and his family appear on the 1911 Census at South Raglan Barracks Devonport in early April 1911.
Moved to Blackdown with 1st Battalion, 8-10-1913.
Appointed Unpaid Lance-Sergeant, 21-12-1911.
Appointed as Paid Lance-Sergeant, 3-7-1912.
Promoted to Sergeant, 5-6-1913.
Discharged on Termination of engagement, 9-7-1914.

Born at Weedon.

Next of kin: Father, James Rial, Weedon, later wife Annie Elizabeth Rial (nee Nicholson, married at Weedon Bec, 31-3-1902)

Father of James (b. Jullundur, 31-1-1907, christened 6-3-1907), twins Rose Agnes Mary and Nellie Gertrude (b. Poona, 26-6-1909, christened 1-8-1909), and Thomas (b. 13-8-1912 at Devonport, christened 3-11-1912)

{Source WO364}



Incidentally, James' brother George Joseph Rial also served. He seems to have been in the Royal Engineers from September 1901 to September 1913 (in South Africa from May 1902 to March 1907). He re-joined in WW1 in 1916 into the Royal Engineers and served  in France (as a skilled carpenter), spent a while in the Labour Corps after he fell off a roof in May 1917 and caused himself a hernia!, before transferring back to an Artizan Company of the Royal Engineers in March 1918.


EDIT again:

As a further point both James and George Joseph's birth registrations appear to be under the name Royle. James was born in the summer of 1877, making him 15 or just 16 when he enlisted, which may explain why he was in the UK for 3 years before going to India (or it may be due to his accidental injuries).




Steve.

[nick aus]

Hello Steve,

Thank you so much for your quick reply. I knew virtually nothing about my great grandfather before today and feel greatly indebted to you for your assistance.
I know my great uncle Thomas and his brother, my grandfather James Rial also served in the military. I was wondering if you could tell me what regiment they served in? Was it also the Northamptonshire Regiment? I know a little about James (363604). He served in the RAOC reached the rank of major before retirement, and I believe he was a prisoner of war in Changi prison. Any further information on any of these people would be warmly received.

Thank you again Steve for your help.
Nick.

[Stebie9173]

The closer to the prsent you get the trickier it becomes to find soldiers as privacy issues come into play.

Most of the 2nd World War records, though they still largely exist, are still private and open only to next of kin, so there are not many publicly available records.


It may be worth contacting Paul Robinson at the Northamptonshire Regiment Museum to see whether the Northamptonshire Regiment post-war enlistment registers include any family references. He may also be able to provide you with a better copy of the above photo.


Do you have the London Gazette entries for James Rial's officer promotions, etc. ?

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/exact=J.+Rial/start=1

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/exact=James+Rial/start=1



Steve.

[nick aus]

Thanks once again Steve.
Do you have any information on James' brother George by any chance.

[nesslay]

hi , my name is Vanessa and iv been reserching the Shirley surname for northants reg ,
I did find 2 possible records but I'm not sure if I have the right ones . John W Shirley and a Frank Shirley who died at war , johns papers made me laugh all it says is reprimand drunk , reprimand doesn't follow orders .
I. wonder if any one will help me .
my nan had quite a few photos but over time have gone AWOL .
hope to hear from anyone very soon

[Stebie9173]

Hello Vanessa,


Are you specifically looking for soldiers named Shirley from Northampton or soldiers in the Northamptonshire Regiment called Shirley?


The Northampton Roll of Honour created in 1916 (for men of Northampton serving in His Majesty's Forces) shows several soldiers with the surname Shirley (the Roll is not very specific in most cases, however).


1. Albert Shirley, of 122 Loyd Road, Northampton, a Private in the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment. Noted as "Wounded & died in hospital in France"

He is listed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as: Private, No. 9355, of the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment - died on 10th December 1914 and buried at  Grave No. I. B. 20. in BOIS GUILLAUME COMMUNAL CEMETERY near Rouen. He is shown as the son of Mr. and Mrs. Shirley, of Queen Street, Upper Weedon, Northants; husband of R. F., Shirley, of 11, Queen's Road, Northampton.


2. Alfred George Shirley, of 65 Ivy Road, "72 Army Ordnance Corps Tipner" (no idea what the 72 & Tipner refer too!)

No further details known


3. Arthur Shirley, of 24 Ambush Street, a Corporal in the 5th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment

No further details known


4. James Henry Shirley of  7 Weston Place, a Private in the 3rd/4th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment (a training battalion in the UK)

James Henry Shirley was transferred to the Leicestershire Regiment thereafter (No. 33279) and later rejoined the 4th Northamptons after the war (No. 5877062).


5. John Shirley, of 14 Overstone Road, a Sergeant in the Northamptonshire Regiment Territorials (4th battalion)

The 1918 Absent Voters list describes him as No. 225060 a Sergeant in the 4th Reserve (Training) Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment - he is still at 14 Overstone Road.


6. Thomas William Shirley, of 110 Loyd Road (Attested under the Derby Scheme but not yet called up - Group 38)

No further details known



If you are specifically looking at the above two service records I can have a look through their records tomorrow.


If you are looking for a specific family then some family details will help (parents, addresses, etc.)




Steve.

[nesslay]

oh my god . it's 3 in the morning and you have made me so happy ..
Albert I'm not sure ov a date for him . but saying that the shirleys didn't travel far . Weedon , Moulton , Pitsford .
John W Shirley  1876' . died 1941 Hazel ech NOrthampton served I'n Royal Arttilery northants regiment and served till 1918 Mother Ellen B Mason. Father William shirley
Frank W Shirley born 1881 In Weedon mother Ellen B Mason father William Shirley
 died I'n service
The name Shirley is the pain I'n the rear because Ellen died quite young she was only I'n her forties so from a research point ov view I can't get no further back from Ellen &'william I don't no wether he got married again or not I'm unsure
but if you. could research the Shirley name from northants reg And other names you have found . that would be amazing .
that's if it isn't too much trouble .... Tank you So So Much
       vanessa