Impossible Brickwall

[Jo Harding]

Hello Annie W,

There is anothe rpossible way of pursuing this and I have sent you a PM with details.

You may be able to find out more on the Duke of Richmond by looking at Burke's Peerage. I think this is available online.

I have ancestors from Somerset and not that far from Bath. At one time quite a number of children were baptised Richmond with it as a christian name. There seems to have been something of a fashion for the name round there. This may be an explanation, unless the Duke of Richmond fathered a vast number of children in those days!

Jo

[Anne W]

 A number of boys being given the christian name Richmond around Bath is interesting and could be an explanation. As far as the Duke of Richmond goes, I've always thought that if Robert RR WAS somehow connected he would have been given the name Lennox, which is the Dukes of Richmonds surname.
 Deciphering a family legend is interesting isn't it, mainly because the whole story has to start somewhere. Ours could have started because Ann Griffith nee Rose was born in a castle and was a bit posh for Maitland NSW circa 1850!
 Bye
Anne

[Ringoroses]

It's coming to something when I start looking at other people's brick walls in the hope that they're  banging on the other side of mine...

Glad you've knocked out a few bricks Anne W. 

[Anne W]

 Forums such as this are great for brickwalls. Just writing everything out can clarify things a bit and of course fresh eyes looking at your problem can be a big help.
 Annie's info on a possible marriage for Robert RR makes a huge difference. I knew he got his Warrant as Purser in April 1799 and had been working under the assumption that he went straight onto HMS Pelican. In April 1799 the Pelican was stationed out of Jamaica and had been serving  there for several years. I had been thinking there was a possibility that Robert RR was a local Jamaican man. BUT if Robert was planning to marry Maria Todd in Plumstead, Middlesex in Sept 1799, then I don't see how he could have been in Jamaica on the Pelican.
  That means his first ship was probably one of the other ships we know he served on. HMS La Sardine or HMS Resource, both of which were captured French ships and were non active and being held in reserve. The Resource was being used as a floating gun platform on the "upper Thames" to guard against French invasion.
   By the way, where exactly is the "upper Thames "?
bye
Anne

[Jo Harding]

Hello Annie W,

It might be worthwhile to put a post on the Armed Forces board to see if any Navy experts can suggest how you might trace more information on the Naval service of Robert Rose.

There is quite a bit on him on the Ancestry World Tree but I suspect you may be linked to this entry.

Have you ever tried to find a Will for him? It sounds as if he would have made one, question is where is it? This might throw more light on his family(ies).

The "upper Thames" is the part of the River Thames near to its source. So it is the part of the river round Reading and Henley on Thames. Someone on the Armed Forces board might be able to enlighten you more as to the meaning of this in Naval terms.

Jo

[Redroger]

If there is a will for him, and there should be as all armed forces were required to make one, it should be at the National Archives, Kew.

[Anne W]

 Sorry Jo I've been an idiot! The Resource was a floating gun battery on the Lower Hope on the River Thames. But that was in 1801, before that she was in service off Egypt. The Sardine, the other ship Robert RR was on was captured from the French in 1796 and sold in 1806 and doesn't seem to have done much in between. The Pelican, the ship he says he was Purser of at his marriage in Dec 1800 was in 1799 stationed in Jamaica.
 I can't find a will for Robert RR Rose. I've searched every possible combination of his name. Very frustrating indeed!

Bye
Ann

[Anne W]

Came across this thread again after a long time out of family history research. 6 years ago I was looking for our Robert RR Rose and I still am! Though I know much more about him than I did back then. In fact I now more about this man's life than any other ancestor I've researched, everything that is except where he was born or who is parents were!!!

Robert Reginald Richmond Rose died at Westminster London and was buried at St John the Evangelist on 4th May 1829. The address given in the church register was 13 Medway St Westminster.

The whole Rose family had come to London from Jersey in 1826 and originally were living at Red Cross St Southwark. This is the address  given on Robert's application letter to the Greenwich School in May 1826 when he was applying for his three youngest children, Jane ,John George and Ann, to be admitted. The Greenwich School was a charity school for the families of ex Naval personnel who found themselves in financial difficulties. Robert says in his letter that trying to start his Newspaper in Jersey cost him all his founds.

The most informative part of this letter was the surprising fact that RRR's daughter Jane ( born 1813 St Helier Jersey) and his son Robert Richmond ( born 1809 St Helier and mentioned in the application) were alive in 1826. The assumption was that they had died as babies, mainly because nothing has ever been found on them apart from their birth . Shows you should never assume anything!

I can't find a thing on son Robert Richmond Rose. There are plenty of Robert Roses around the right age in the English census's but none born in Jersey. He is not in any of the Jersey censuses even though his mother  and sister Ann eventually return there. Jane could be the Jane Rose who married William Edward Bishop at St John the Evangelist in 1832. But again I can't find this couple in any censuses . Very frustrating!

The oddest thing to come out of the Greenwich School papers I order from National Archives UK was
the signing of the 50 pound surety for John George Rose in September 1828. This was when he was starting the senior school at Greenwich and was to ensure John George joined the Navy after his education ( he did). His mother Ann Rose signed, calling herself a widow ( she wasn't) and giving her address as 13 Medway St. Co signing the surety was Robertine Bouton also a widow and also giving her address as 13 Medway st.

It was really easy to trace Robertine Bouton. She was French and the widow of Antoine Augustin Bouton, a member of the Legion d'Honeur and a loyal soldier of Napoleon.

So Ann Rose ,wife of a Royal Navy officer who spent his entire naval career fighting the French was living with the widow of a French officer and pretending to be a widow herself!!!

Is it any wonder this family drives me crazy?

[Andrew Tarr]

This is a fascinating tale, but I'm a bit confused.  Was the 1799 event a marriage, or only publication of banns?  One of the parties may have chickened out, and the later marriage may not have been bigamous?