Photo: can you identify DRAPER/BUTLER Gypsies, Bedfordshire?

[emjsw]

Hi Emma

I'm pleased to report that recently a member of the Romany and Traveller FHS has given us an identity for the man and woman in the photograph that I posted here eight years ago.

They are Israel Draper or Parker and his wife Scenty/Saney Butler. Israel was born in Tingrith, Buckinghamshire, son of Nelson Draper and Naomi Parker or Ellis, in 1885. He was buried in 1970 in Dunstable Cemetery, Bedfordshire. Scenty/Saney died in 1978 and is buried in the same cemetery.

Sharon

Hi Sarah,

That is fantastic, I am so pleased you know who they are now. Thank you so much for sharing the info you have. I think Spenser Draper had a son called Nelson, brother to Mary Anne from who I descend. I wonder if they are the same family?

Thanks for getting in touch.

Best wishes,
Emma

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Emma

Having checked my Draper database, it looks like your Spencer Draper was the first cousin of a Nelson Draper. That Nelson was the father of the man in the photo. So you are definitely related to him.

Sharon

[emjsw]

Hi Emma

Having checked my Draper database, it looks like your Spencer Draper was the first cousin of a Nelson Draper. That Nelson was the father of the man in the photo. So you are definitely related to him.

Sharon

Thanks Sharon,
It is wonderful to see photos of people you are related to.
I am trying to figure out the relationships.

My Spenser Draper was born 1824 • Husborne Crawley, Bedfordshire, England and died Mar 1901 • Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, England
He had children with Jane Webb.

His children were:
Eliza Draper Miss(1850–1925)
1850 • Bow Brickhill, Buckinghamshire, England
Aaron Draper Mr(1852–1944)
1852 • Bicester, Oxfordshire, England
Eli/Edmund Draper(1854–1906)
1854 • Salford, Bedfordshire, England
Mary Ann Draper(1857–1937)
1857 • Piddington, Buckinghamshire, England
Nelson Draper Smith Mr(1859–1939)
1859 • Stoke, Buckinghamshire, England

His parents were:
William (Billy) Draper 05 Feb 1803 • Moulsoe, Buckinghamshire, England. DEATH 1874 • Woburn Sands, Buckinghamshire, England
Mary Cotchin Birth abt 1805 • Ridgmont, Bedfordshire, England. Death 1874 • Woburn Sands, Buckinghamshire, England

His Siblings were:
Eleanor Draper(1823–1901) 1823 • Sherington, Buckinghamshire, England
William Draper(1833–) abt 1833 • Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, England
Kisby Draper(1834–1925) 9 Nov 1834 • Aspley Guise, Bedfordshire, England
Darnitty Draper(1837–1877) 1837 • hogsty end, Woburn Sands, Buckinghamshire, England
Alexander (Ellick/Alec) Draper(1837–1896) 1837 • Westerham, Kent, England

If Isreal Draper Parker's father Nelson was a first cousin of Spenser's then I am guessing that Nelson was a son of William (Billy) Draper's brother or sister.

The only siblings I have for William (Billy) Draper are:
Israel Draper(1807–) 1807 • Newton, Buckinghamshire, England
Samuel Draper(1808–)

I can't find anything out about Samuel so he must be wrong. I have the following information for Isreal:
Baptism Newton-Blossomville, Buckingham, England, parents William Draper and Eleanor.
He may have had a relationship with someone called Louisa and had a son called Levi and he may have married a Rebecca Clare in 1844 but I can't find any children.

Perhaps Isreal had a son called Nelson who was the father of Isreal in the picture or perhaps William (Billy) Draper had another Sibling I don't know about who is the father of Nelson?

William (Billy) Draper, Isreal Draper and Samuel Draper's parents were William who died in Woburn Sands 1834 and Eleanor who died in 1838.

Do you know who Nelson's father was please so that I can tie Nelson, Isreal Draper/Parker and my Spenser Draper together?

Sorry to ask but I get so confused with putting things together for the early Drapers!

Best wishes,
Emma

[peggysmum]

Hi Emma. This lot are part of my family. A distant cousin/friend of mine is a granddaughter of Israel and Saney. From my research Israel was the son of Israel Draper who later used the name Nelson Parker. His partner was Naomi Smith. Her mum was Esther Loveridge a sister of my 3rd great grandad James.
Israel we think was born in 1837 to Nelson Draper and his partner Esther. Now I'm not totally sure but I think his parents were William and Argetto, but I haven't done to much that far back.
I do know Israel/ Nelson and Naomi had a son called Spencer 1873_1910 his partner was Elizabeth Smith and I know of 1 son called Nelson.
Spencer ,Nelson and Israel are named which are still used in the family today. Israel and Saney had a Spencer too. Oh and I see you have a Kisby too. We had 2 Kisby's father and son. So I'm sure the families are connected.
Hope this helps. Tracey

[emjsw]

Hi Emma. This lot are part of my family. A distant cousin/friend of mine is a granddaughter of Israel and Saney. From my research Israel was the son of Israel Draper who later used the name Nelson Parker. His partner was Naomi Smith. Her mum was Esther Loveridge a sister of my 3rd great grandad James.
Israel we think was born in 1837 to Nelson Draper and his partner Esther. Now I'm not totally sure but I think his parents were William and Argetto, but I haven't done to much that far back.
I do know Israel/ Nelson and Naomi had a son called Spencer 1873_1910 his partner was Elizabeth Smith and I know of 1 son called Nelson.
Spencer ,Nelson and Israel are named which are still used in the family today. Israel and Saney had a Spencer too. Oh and I see you have a Kisby too. We had 2 Kisby's father and son. So I'm sure the families are connected.
Hope this helps. Tracey

Thank you very much for getting back to me, this really helps to place everyone and to think about how we might be linked. Perhaps our common Draper ancestor was William Draper who married Eleanor or maybe even his parents but I am struggling to get back that far!
Anyway, thanks ever so much for getting in touch.

Best wishes,
Emma

[Andruchappelle]

Hi Emma

Having checked my Draper database, it looks like your Spencer Draper was the first cousin of a Nelson Draper. That Nelson was the father of the man in the photo. So you are definitely related to him.

Sharon

Thanks Sharon,
It is wonderful to see photos of people you are related to.
I am trying to figure out the relationships.

My Spenser Draper was born 1824 • Husborne Crawley, Bedfordshire, England and died Mar 1901 • Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, England
He had children with Jane Webb.

His children were:
Eliza Draper Miss(1850–1925)
1850 • Bow Brickhill, Buckinghamshire, England
Aaron Draper Mr(1852–1944)
1852 • Bicester, Oxfordshire, England
Eli/Edmund Draper(1854–1906)
1854 • Salford, Bedfordshire, England
Mary Ann Draper(1857–1937)
1857 • Piddington, Buckinghamshire, England
Nelson Draper Smith Mr(1859–1939)
1859 • Stoke, Buckinghamshire, England

His parents were:
William (Billy) Draper 05 Feb 1803 • Moulsoe, Buckinghamshire, England. DEATH 1874 • Woburn Sands, Buckinghamshire, England
Mary Cotchin Birth abt 1805 • Ridgmont, Bedfordshire, England. Death 1874 • Woburn Sands, Buckinghamshire, England

His Siblings were:
Eleanor Draper(1823–1901) 1823 • Sherington, Buckinghamshire, England
William Draper(1833–) abt 1833 • Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, England
Kisby Draper(1834–1925) 9 Nov 1834 • Aspley Guise, Bedfordshire, England
Darnitty Draper(1837–1877) 1837 • hogsty end, Woburn Sands, Buckinghamshire, England
Alexander (Ellick/Alec) Draper(1837–1896) 1837 • Westerham, Kent, England

If Isreal Draper Parker's father Nelson was a first cousin of Spenser's then I am guessing that Nelson was a son of William (Billy) Draper's brother or sister.

The only siblings I have for William (Billy) Draper are:
Israel Draper(1807–) 1807 • Newton, Buckinghamshire, England
Samuel Draper(1808–)

I can't find anything out about Samuel so he must be wrong. I have the following information for Isreal:
Baptism Newton-Blossomville, Buckingham, England, parents William Draper and Eleanor.
He may have had a relationship with someone called Louisa and had a son called Levi and he may have married a Rebecca Clare in 1844 but I can't find any children.

Perhaps Isreal had a son called Nelson who was the father of Isreal in the picture or perhaps William (Billy) Draper had another Sibling I don't know about who is the father of Nelson?

William (Billy) Draper, Isreal Draper and Samuel Draper's parents were William who died in Woburn Sands 1834 and Eleanor who died in 1838.

Do you know who Nelson's father was please so that I can tie Nelson, Isreal Draper/Parker and my Spenser Draper together?

Sorry to ask but I get so confused with putting things together for the early Drapers!

Best wishes,
Emma

Hi Emma,
Eleanor Draper born in 1823 Sherington is a ggg grandparent of mine, she married John Rainbow, they had children and then John married a Lavinia draper and had more children. I am decendant of Lucy rainbow who married George Tatham. Their daughter Ethel married James Webb up in yorkshire.
I'd love to see any photos if anyone on here has any?
Kind regards
Andrew

[Andruchappelle]

Hi Emma, just a correction to my last post.
Eleanor draper, daughter of Mary cotchin and William draper, had half brothers Israel and Spencer draper. They show up on my DNA matches on ancestry. So I am guessing that Mary cotchin had them from a previous father or William had them from a previous partner. As the match shows as my half x4 great uncle. So it would have been my gggg grandmother's half brother. I will post a screen shot of my DNA matches.

My gx4 grandmother Eleanor Draper seems to have been the second wife of John Rainbow, his first wife was Lavinia Draper, and I had read somewhere that John had stated he was a bachelor when he married Eleanor as Lavinia was her aunt.
John Rainbow and Lavinia Draper seemed to have 3 children together and then she died, which is when he then remarries Eleanor.

[Andruchappelle]

It also states on my matches that Israel's son is called Nelson, and there are brothers and sisters, one sister called comfort, who married welch.