CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates

[km1971]

Hi Dalton

From your ‘timeline’ you must have his service record, so I am surprised you are stuck on basic information such as date of enlistment, regimental number and date of discharge.

The Good Conduct ‘badge’ was actually an inverted stripe worn over the left cuff. The qualification changed a number of times but one GC badge was usually awarded after only three years good conduct, so he obviously was no angel. Also, the time he was AWOL plus the punishment was unpaid and taken off the service towards his pension. So, again, his papers should say if the 12 years and 70 days was total service or ‘pensionable’ service.

Also, when you get to heaven you can tell him he is out of uniform, as the middle medal is the Turkish Crimea medal and he should be wearing the Mutiny Medal (the striped one) nearer the heart than a foreign award. Here is a link which has the same medals correctly worn before the foreign award. The extra medal with the plain ribbon is the Long Service Good Conduct medal, and is also worn before foreign awards.

http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso?itemid=39224


Ken

[diatrbus]

G'day Ken, Happy New Year.

Again you've got me after midnight so I'll have to do another shuffle through all the papers I have for him later in the morning. The anomaly is that we definitely have him enlisting in the NSW Police Force in 1862 - and probably arriving in Sydney with Governor Young in 1861!! Could it be that he was still on 8th H strength until '62 but seconded to the hastily-travelling new NSW Governor whose ADC could not travel with him? Do you think that to be a possibility?

And what do you think of the uniform that he is wearing? There's two versions that appear to me to be almost identical to that of an 8th H. An argument exists as to whether the uniform he wears is Hussars or NSWPol. Part two - is that uniform perhaps a "full dress" version?

The GC badge - the two formal studio photos show an indistinct lump of something just above his right hand's cuff and frogging. What's your opinion of that? Is it perhaps a solid rank badge, or the GC badge? He doesn't seem to be wearing a badge, or a stripe anywhere else. Could it perhaps be a gold crown to signify his employment by the Crown's representative - as is seen in two later photos upon his despatch pouch?

And, Yes! As an ex-Serviceman myself I did pick the anomaly with his medal dispositiion. (I also was a trained professional photographer and analyst before I changed departments and ran the Australian Immigration Department's anti-Document Fraud and Document Examination effort for a number of years: and so I have some ability in spotting such things.) Mind you, the eyes are rapidly going!

Thanks again, and all the best for 2010 to all chatterers.

DFN

[km1971]

It is not a uniform of the 8th Hussars. They had blue and red tunics. This one has yellow or white facings - collars and cuffs. The helment plate was also based upon a harp.

Also here is an example of their sabretache - http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishcavalry/8thhussarssabretache1823.htm - albeit from an early reign. I doubt they ever used a plain Queen Victoria crown. And not being an officer he would have had to hand his uniform back when he was discharged.

GC badges were over the left cuff.

Happy new year to you too.

Ken

[Marscourt]

Dalton Neville is my favorite cuz at all this...
but, a few examples of a "picture means a thousand words".

[Marscourt]

This is the ROUNDEL helmet plate we see on DALTON'S pith style helmet (not Busby); clearly marked as "NEW SOUTH WALES POLICE"; verified under microscope by the NSW State Library. Only two originals of these helmet plates are known to still exist. One is at the Justice and Police Museum in Sydney and one is is with a GG Grandson. This plate appears clearly on two different helmets and on both Freeman "Carte de Visite's", we know exist of S/SGT Charles DALTON (NSWP); which were taken from c 1870-1880. Copies of these photos are the Mitchell Library (State Library of NSW) and Australian War Memorial. The original Freeman wet plate negative of the earlier the two photos (below) is at University of Sydney and is in their Freeman collection. The later and last family portrait by Freeman and Co (above) shows what seems to be a much older DALTON (and family) and his helmet is partially obscurred (tipped forward) and the plate not visible.

[diatrbus]

Thanks, Ken; and G'day Mike.

The three images in the composite are the cause of confusion and speculation. As an amateur to all this I'm interested to know if all/most of HM's uniforms of the 1800s derive from the same basic pattern - per rank or Service.

More thanks, Ken; that website will have me occupied for hours - I also have an old photo of my maternal Grandfather's training ship (that he absconded from after copping a session with "the cat." When his scars healed he immediately joined the Queen's Bays and ended up in S/Africa for the Boer War. From that he headed for A/a and then served in the 1st and 2nd AIF.) I'm happy to send a digital copy of that photo of the "HMS Impregnable" of 1890...s.

Brgds, DFN

[km1971]

Hi Dalton

According to the Mutiny medal roll his number was 436. Private Charles Dalton, 8th Hussars, awarded medal with one clasp for Central India.

There is also a 1467 Privatee Whirral Dalton in the 8H winning the same medal and clasp.

Ken

[Marscourt]

We think the badge on his right sleeve may be a padded, bulbous, Queen Victoria crown (QVC); a rank badge, signifying "Senior Sergeant" in the NSW Police; but can not be verified because of the angle of the photo. We know this photo was taken in 1876 (we know this from the Freeman catalouge at the State Library of NSW). Official NSW Police records seem to show Dalton promoted to the rank of SGT in 1868; and later to S/SGT in 1878.
However, the 1874 NSW "Distribution of Police" records, show only a S/SGT, a S/Constable and two Constables as Mounted "Orderlies to His Excellency the Governor" (no SGT) which may suggest Dalton was the "Acting S/SGT" at the time of this earlier photo and given special dispensation to wear the QVC; denoting the rank of S/SGT.

[diatrbus]

That rank symbol also appears, but not distinctly enough to positively identify - although I cannot imagine what else it could be - in two other photos taken of Charles Dalton in 1880 and 1888.

Brgds, DFN