Author Topic: St John's School, Wapping.  (Read 6281 times)

Offline Carl42

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St John's School, Wapping.
« on: Saturday 26 December 09 12:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi All -

Dose anyone know if any records exist for pupils at St John's School, Scandrett Street, Wapping?  The period that interests me is early part of the 19c and possibly end of 18c.

Many thanks and season's greetings - Carl

Offline patrish

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 26 December 09 20:33 GMT (UK) »
If there are any I would imagine they would be held at the LMA, why not give them a call in the new year .
this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley

Offline Valda

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 27 December 09 11:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Have you looked at the topic help guide LINKS TO RECOMMENDED RESEARCH GUIDES – CHECK THESE OUT at the top of the London and Middlesex boards? This links to the research guides held at the main London Archives. The one of most interest is probably held by the Guildhall Library on schools. A link in that leads you to the archives held at the Guildhall Library for the St John's Charity School Wapping.


WAPPING CHARITY SCHOOL. (Date of foundation and address unknown) Ms 2654

Administrative records, 1794-1897 (apprenticeship fund accounts only)



From this website also asking about these records

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37713

'The administrative records for Wapping Charity School .... are interesting. They are catalogued as the Apprenticeship Fund accounts, but in fact they are general accounts for the Trustees of the Charity School, covering 1794-1897. In addition to apprenticeship fees, they include receipts and payments for many other items (building repairs, travel expenses, insurance premiums, property taxes etc.), as well as funds made over to the school on a regular basis.'


The LMA research guides give no indication of the school records they hold.



Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline QueSera

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 27 December 09 12:43 GMT (UK) »


A snap I took earlier this year
Roll (Bermondsey, Southwark, Norfolk)
Ray/Wray (Bermondsey, Colraine?)
Rice (Bermondsey)
Oliver (Bermondsey)
Alwood (Norwich)
Jarrett (London, Norfolk)
Mendham (Norfolk)


Offline Carl42

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 27 December 09 15:09 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Patrish, Valda ands Quesera - Nice photo!

Valda - I'm struggling to find 'Links to Recommended Research Sites - Check These Out".  It is worrying to think that I can't find info even when directed there!  Am I a lost cause - or have I just had a glass too many?

Regards  Carl

Offline Valda

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 27 December 09 16:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi

London and Middlesex board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html

There are locked help topics at the top of the board - worth looking at

A GUIDE TO BURIALS IN THE LONDON AREA 
A GUIDE TO ENGLISH CENSUSES 
LOCAL STUDIES LIBRARIES AND OTHER USEFUL ARCHIVES SITUATED IN LONDON 
LONDON METROPOLITAN ARCHIVES/ANCESTRY DIGITISATION
REQUESTS FOR PARISH REGISTER LOOK-UPS - IMPORTANT INFORMATION
ENGLISH CERTIFICATES – HELPFUL INFORMATION 
A GUIDE TO WILLS IN THE LONDON AREA 
LINKS TO RECOMMENDED RESEARCH GUIDES – CHECK THESE OUT
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403309.0.html 
GUIDANCE – PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING ON THIS BOARD 
PLEASE MARK POSTS COMPLETED - THIS BENEFITS EVERYONE - PLEASE READ WHY 


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Carl42

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #6 on: Monday 04 January 10 13:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda and all - Many thanks for all this info - I really appreciate your help.  There is much to follow up and this will require a trip to London.  In the hope that I can extract even more from this posting may I be allowed to expand things a little further.

James Buckle White was my 2g grandfather.  His father (William Samuel White) died in 1839.  JBW was finally orphaned in 1842 at the age of 5.  WSW died at Anchor and Hope Alley, Wapping whilst his wife (Martha White) died at nearby Tench Street.  WSW was a sextant maker, probably trading around the nearby London Docks.  There is no sign of mother or son in 1841 (possibly due to missing sections in the census - books 5 and 7 of District 6, St John's/St George's). However in 1851 JBW is found apprenticed to a tailor in nearby Bostock Street (all 3 addresses are a stones throw from each other).

The sort of questions that I am trying to answer are: where was JBW between the ages of 5 and 13 (1842 and 1851)?  Who cared for him?  Who paid for his schooling (the above addresses are close by to both Wapping Charity School and Raines School)?  How might it have been decided that JBW would become a tailor?
I realise that these questions perhaps fall more into the realm of Dockland's Social History, rather than Family History.  Any hints/info would as always be most welcome.

Best Regards and Happy New Year.  Carl (White)

 
     

Offline Valda

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #7 on: Monday 04 January 10 19:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi

There is an assumption there anybody paid for any schooling or that indeed he attended a school at all. Board school and a concept of education for all at its most elementary, is still some way away at the time of the 1840s. He may have got some schooling through the church on Sundays. Did he sign his name on his marriage? He certainly learnt a trade so he experienced some sort of apprenticeship, but that may have been paid for by the poor law union if he entered the workhouse as indeed he might have received some elementary schooling from that source.

The known missing pieces for the 1841 census are these

HO107/668 covering St Luke, West Finsbury, Golden-Lane, Old Street and Whitecross-Street
HO107/680 covering Paddington
HO107/690 covering part of Kensington, Brompton and part of Kensal Green

If his father had died his mother may very well be working as a servant somewhere in London and he may be boarded with a family so not necessarily together and not necessarily in Wapping, where if she had family, she might have returned when she was too ill to work. It is at that point he may have been absorbed into part of the extended family or entered into the local poor law union. If so the union would decide on whatever trade they could find for the child and apprentice them out as soon as possible (then they would no longer be chargeable to the rates) - 7 would be a standard age.


Regards

Valda
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Offline Carl42

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Re: St John's School, Wapping.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 07 January 10 15:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda - Many thanks for all your comments, which are much appreciated and as usual provide new insight.

My thinking was that in order to be a tailor he would have required more than basic education, but I suppose this need not be true.  He served his apprenticeship with the same tailor as his elder brother William.  (William was completing about the time that James was starting his).  He did sign his marriage certificate in 1858 and his hand-writing is rather neat.   There does not seem to be much point in persuing his schooling any further since from your comments and what I have read, there would seem to be very little chance of finding records for an individual.

Your comments on the missing sections of the 1841 census I find particularly interesting.  When I look in 'Ancestry' at "Middlesex - St George's in the East - St John I find just 3 books - '1', '6' and 'Workhouse'.  I had always assumed from this that books 2 to 5 must be missing, but your comment says otherwise.  Do you think that there ever was a book 2, 3, 4 and 5?

If so little of the 1841 census is missing then why can't I find them?  There is plenty of evidence to support that they never left the area -
1839 father died in Anchor and Hope Alley (I have the death cert.).
1842 mother died in almost the next street - Tench Street (I have the cert.).
1842ish son William started apprenticeship at local tailor in Bostock Street at the end of Anchor and Hope Alley.
1851 William and James are both serving apprenticeships in Bostock Street.
It is possible that they moved away in the meantime (1839 - 1842) but the odds must be that they were nearby.  Even if they moved away in 1841 they should still show in the census.

Kind Regards  Carl