Master Mariner (MM)

[Bond1]

Any information regarding the Occupation Master Mariner (MM) in London 1700s + would be appreciated.
Regards
Noel
Great-Great Grandfarther:

David Vivian

Occupation
Master Mariner (MM

Information so far:
Master Mariner

Traditionally, a person holding an unrestricted master's license is called a Master Mariner and may use the postnominal title MM. The term unrestricted indicates that there is no restriction of size, power or geographic location on the license. It is the highest level of professional qualification amongst mariners. In England the term Master Mariner has been in use at least since the 13th century—reflecting the fact that in guild terms, such a person was a master craftsman in this specific profession. In the United States, it was introduced in the mid-19th century. Currently, a U.S. Master Mariner License is reserved for issue to those few who have attained the level of Unlimited Master, as well as Unlimited Chief Engineer, unlike the UK.

An unrestricted master's license is colloquially called a "Master's Ticket", "Master's Unlimited" or just a "Master's." In the UK the official name of a Master Mariner’s qualification has varied over the years. The conventions or acts governing the license have evolved alongside the shipping industry. The master's license is sometimes still referred to as a Class 1 or Master Foreign-Going certificate as it was named during the latter part of the 20th century. The UK Maritime & Coastguard Agency, inline with the amended STCW convention, currently title the license as Master Unlimited.

Ref (wikipedia)

[Ruskie]

Welcome to rootsfchat Noel. You may already have this but ...
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKMasters.html
But no records before 1845.

And a famous mariner from around the same time:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Christopher_Columbus.aspx

Sorry I couldn't be of any real assistance.

[MacLeod363]

You could help to resolve a transatlantic family disagreement over whether or not MM as a post nominal can refer to anything other than to the person as a holder of the Military Medal.   

My UK domiciled brother tells me that the post nominal MM as in Master Mariner is not recognized nowadays.

We have a g-g-grandfather who was a Master Mariner and we are unsure as to whether to put MM after his name in our family tree

We would appreciate any guidance that you could give me on this matter

I believe there is a small bet riding on the outcome which I would love to have my brother pay me on my next visit to Blighty.

Any help would be most appreciated !

[Bond1]

The Master Mariner  (MM) is on 2 Marriage records and also a Census record in my Family. I have also found it to be used at Wed sites when I Googled Master Mariner.
Who knows, these days any thing seems pass  muster.
Good luck with your bet.

Ref (wikipedia)

[Bond1]

Some more info just found:

Description: Someone who was heavily experienced in the craft of sailing, often a Captain or Master of a ship or vessel.

Ref: familytreeservice's.com.uk

[Springbok]

My Husband is a retired Master Mariner.

On Census returns he would put "Ship Master"(Foreign Going)

There is a higher qualification "Extra Master" written as "ExC" This entitles one to teach ,and possibly a bit of extra cash!

He said that he has never used "MM" after his name, as he would use Captain J*****   N***** and any other professional  qualification initials would be self explanatory to those whom it concerned!!

Spring

[MacLeod363]

To Bond 1 and Springbok.

Thank you both for your responses.    My young brother has clearly won the bet which was specifically on the contemporary use of MM as a post nominal for a Master Mariner.   I can't think of a more qualified person than a retired master mariner to put us straight on how he would like to be addressed in correspondence which he says should be as Captain J ..... N ..... with professional qualifications following his name.   

Our g-g-grandfather was home for just one census during his career and on that occasion the census taker entered him as a Master Mariner.   I don't appear to have his actual birth certificate so I cannot check that source however thanks to an excellent professional researcher at the National Archives we do have a copy of his Master Mariners Certificate and his entries in The Lloyds Captain's Register from 1883 - 1909.

We already had some of his personal papers but unfortunately no envelopes to show us what form of address his contemporaries in the period 1888 - 1926 used when addressing their envelopes to him.     This would have been prima face evidence of the historical use of the post nominal MM in g-g-grandfather's time

Tx again for your help

[Bond1]

thanks to an excellent professional researcher at the National Archives we do have a copy of his Master Mariners Certificate and his entries in The Lloyd's Captain's Register from 1883 - 1909.

It would be a treat to be able to get a copy of my David Vivian's Master Mariners Certificate.
I know of the  Lloyd's Captain's Register  but I have found it comersome to use.
Any one now how to use the Lloyd's Captain's Register ?

[MacLeod363]

As mentioned previously I used a professional maritime researcher to pull all the information so if it helps I can give you what I can glean from what she gave me as her sources.

(1)  The Masters Certificates are housed at the NMM in Greenwich.    She tells that the NMM take three weeks or more to answer specific enquiries and are adamant that to make the search they need the number of the MM's certificate.    Our MM's number started with a CO and then had 5 numbers following. 

(2)   Where do you get this number ?  My researcher told me that she usually finds them in BT 122 - BT 127 which are a series of Board of Trade records relating to Merchant Seamen which covers competency certificates.  They are supposed to be indexed in BT 127 but she could not find his entry there.   I had told her that he had served in the merchant marine in WW1 and having provided her with this clue she found his medal card in BT 351 which had his MM's certificate number.

(3)   How to read The Captains Registers of Lloyds of London Guildhall Library Ms 18567 ?   Mr researcher told me that she ordered them in advance of her visit to The London Metropolitan Archives.   Once there she took photographs of our MM's entries in four of the registers because of the use of colored inks and underlinings to denote various key pieces of information such as whether the MM was Captain, 2nd Mate or even 3rd of 4th Mate.   There are also some really neat blue entries that describe "incidents" such as sinkings, groundings etc.  This is all very well explained in an 8 page document that my researcher sent me entitled 'Lloyds "Captains Registers" at Guildhall Library and related sources elsewhere'

Hope this is of use to you