clotworthy

[aghadowey]

Sounds quite logical, Ruskie.

clotworthy- Patterson and Hamilton are very common surnames in Co. Down so it's really not wise to start thinking there are connections between everyone with those names.

Back to David Patterson's marriage to Elizabeth Conville-

of course i didnt look at the dates your right of course that would be impossible so many children in such a short space of time, are you suggesting then that david was married before i found on family search a david patterson christened 1837, father john patterson there was no mention of a mother for david in either pieces of information do you think i am looking at the right couple there couldnt have been to many people born with clotworthy in their name, doubting if i am looking at the right parents at all, if they got married in 1888 that would have made him in his fifties when they got married so it is possible that he had many children what do you think

I'm not suggesting that David Patterson was married twice- it is a fact- does the marriage certificate you have not say widower?
"David PATTERSON - Comber & Newtownards - a widower & blacksmith of Comber ; son of John Patterson (a labourer ) ; married Lizzie colville 9 jul 1888 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church , witnesses were Samuel & Mary Colville"
You can't assume that 'your' David Patterson was in his 50s when he married- if (still a big if at this stage) he was married in 1870 the first time he could have been born around late 1840s- at this point there's no way to connect him with that 1837 baptism (early baptisms often don't mention the mother's name).

[clotworthy]

i dont have the marriage certificate, the only piece of evidence i have for all of this is a short birth certificate and a lot of family hear say ... i am thinking of visiting the council today do you think they could give me davids birth certificate and even if i could get hold of a marriage certificate it would be great the quote i gave you above came from the comber parish records site that they have online .

[clotworthy]

thanks ruskie i suppose it is possible i dont mind you butting in appreciate all the help i can get. but i know what you mean i tend to make things find to suit as well thats why i hope im looking at the right couple here.  i think i need to start getting some paper evidence to back it up i am gonna start at the council offices. do you need to make an appointment does anyone know or can you just turn up.

[aghadowey]

The council will have copies of marriage registers but not any birth records. Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there's isn't likely to be a birth certificate for David Patterson (especially if he was first married in 1870).

You should certainly get the 1888 marriage certificate and I would also check the 1870 marriage (see if occupation, father's details, etc.) match the 1888 one.
If the 1870 marriage is correct then I have found more details which seem to fit the family.

[clotworthy]

i was able to get the 1888 marriage to sarah colville and on it david patterson is widowed they oculdnt find the 1870 marriage cause i didnt have the church they where married in she checked a couple for me but no luck, emerald ancestory give me the church after i got home, can i ask what other information you have, i still need to connect elizabet colville to the birth of alice that way i will know i have the right couple.

[clotworthy]

i have the sister phoebe from emerald ancestors father david and mother anne jane hamilton so i def have my connection to this couple

[aghadowey]

1911 census- 5 Roseberry St. (Pottinger DED), Down:
David Thompson, 40
wife Phoebe 38 married 17 years 8 children/8 living
children- David 16, Alexander 14, Ann Jane 12, Lizzie 10, William 8, James 6, John 5, Agnes 3
niece Elizabeth Thompson 20
see here for full details-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Roseberry_Street/229216/

Birth registration- David Patterson Thompson Jan./Mar.1895 Newtonards registration district

[Accra]

Hello,
Does anyone researching the Clotworthy family have in their tree a Jane Clotworthy possibly born in England I don't know her Clotworthy parents. She was still alive in 1719 in Ireland as an older women as Jane Downing mentioned in her son's will. Thank you, Jill.

[dukewm]

Hello Jill,

Pardon the time delay from your last post but I've just discovered a Downing/Clotworthy connection.

From Post #5 below in reference to Adam's Will whereby he bequethed to his nephew Daniel his rights of tenantcy with rents payable to Lord Viscount Massereene and the Downing connection to the Skeffington family (Adam served in the Regiment of Col Clotworthy Skeffington - see Quiet Places of the Lower Bann Valley by John Hughes, Chapter 33 @ http://family.kiwicelts.com/21_Places_and_History/Quiet_Places_of_the_Lower_Bann.html ) ; I was determined to find out if we could connect Jane Clotworthy to this Skeffington association.

As it turned out, Col. Clotworthy Skeffington was the 3rd Viscount Massereene to whom nephew Daniel would be indebted for rents and was the son of Sir John Skeffington, 2nd Viscount Masereene, who married Mary, the ONLY daughter of Sir John Clotworthy b. abt 1595 and created 1st Viscount Masereene in 1660.
Sir John Clotworthy was the son of Sir Hugh Clotworthy b. abt 1569 in Devon, England.
Sir Hugh married Mary Langford also of Devon, Eng in abt. 1694 and apparently emigrated to Ireland, because he served as Sheriff of Antrim.
Sir Hugh had 2 brothers, Simon the eldest b. abt. 1567 and Lewis b. ? and 3 sisters, Grace, Sarah, and Joan.

Other than Sir John, I could only find 1 other child of Sir Hugh and Mary Langford, a daughter named Mary b. abt 1601, who married a John Upton.

It is possible that Sir Hugh's brother Simon, who married Mary Rashley (location unknown) and they also emigrated to Ireland, eventually becoming the grandparents of Jane Clotworthy, but that would be speculation at this point and I haven't been able to research further.
The point of all this is that the Clotworthy's had been firmly established in Ireland for several generations and originated from Devon. It could therefore be surmised that the reference to Adam being of an ancient Devonshire family, may have been intended to reference his mother Jane, rather than his father, or surname Downing, the elusive Henry, whom we have yet to verify.

On another note, I'd like to share our respective branches down to our generation if you are willing.
My 2nd cousin Tia, with whom you have been working on these Downings sent me some information on Alexander Downing b. 1858 who I believe may be descended from Dawson and I will be making a visit to the National Archives, Philadelphia Branch to research some of his details.
If you have any specific needs, I could be your "boots on the ground" here.

thanks and have a good day,
Rick T
(dukewm)