Ellen Rooney. St.Helens, Lancs.

[nieve]

Message for Heywood,   Yes, I agree.   Patrick can't have been that bad if they all still lived together.   If she had been in any 'home' she would have shown up on any census.   This is all really immaterial but it's like that piece in a jigsaw.    However, at the suggestion of Lizzie I have contacted Holy Cross Church, via their website, as they have a section on Family History.    Watch this space!     Nieve. 

[heywood]

That's a good move.
Do you have the last child's birth certificate -I know it says St Helens but as they were living in a different place in 1891, I wondered what address was shown on the certificate.
Just a note re asylums, patients were often just listed as E R with no clues as to identity. As I said, none seem show in Prestwich and I don't know if Winwick was open then.
best wishes
heywood

[LizzieW]

Nieve

If Heywood's suggestion is correct and Ellen ended up in a mental hospital (perhaps with postnatal depression), it could be that she didn't die until many years later.  One of my g.uncles was in Prestwich Asylum from 1907 until his death in 1964.  Ellen was apparently only 18 on the 1881 census, born 1863  (I guess she was nearing her 19th birthday, if not it would mean she married at age 15), so in the usual way of things, you could expect that she would live until about 1940s.

Lizzie

[heywood]

Help!
I'm not suggesting that's the explanation - only thought of it as a possibility as we can't find a death and that the families remain united.
But then you would wonder why Patrick would class himself as a widower - we would assume that he was upset/ashamed if she deserted him/was in an institution - sadly we don't know 

heywood

[heywood]

Having said that - just checked 1911 census and there is an Ellen Rooney born St Helens although  in 1875, in an institution in Prestwich. 

[nieve]

Well, after trying to trawl through mental hospital patients sites, and failed miserably, I gave up.   I felt as though I could have booked my own bed!   So my next plan of action is:-   As yet I have had no answer/communication from Holy Cross Church and if there is still no reply in a few days time I will send, as suggested, for the youngest child's birth certificate.   If that fails I will just assume she ran off with the coalman and changed her name.    My dad could only remember his 'old 'grandfather and his auntie Ellen.   That would be Ellen's daughter.    If there had been anything 'untoward' in the family I'm sure my grandmother would have known.   They all seemed to sit on the pavements gossiping in the summer watching the world go by!   My sister said that was because they had no chairs inside.   Did nobody speak to anybody in those days or were they all just trying to get enough to eat?    Nieve.

[heywood]

If you were going to look at mental hospital sites, I would look first at the entry for an Ellen Rooney in  1911 census- even if the age is out to just eliminate that Ellen. The problem is that I don't suppose there will be enough information- other than if she is married.

I have just done a quick check on advanced search and even though the record seems to say that she was born 1875, if you include 1878 for marriage year, the same person does show up for Prestwich hospital. However, you would have to access the census to get the proper information.  I'm not that sure re 1911 census, though - I put another year of marriage in and that showed up too for the same Ellen 
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9644  indicates that some records are available if this was your Ellen and you wanted to pursue it.

As I said before it is only a suggestion for someone for whom you can't find anything else at the moment. It is also possible that she may well have just run off with the coalman and disappeared with a new name. I suppose you need to look at all possibilities.

best wishes
heywood

[maryalex]

Nieve,

Perhaps you could also approach the local registrar for Prescot or Warrington to enquire about a death registration in case it was one that never got in to the GRO index.

Mary

[nieve]

Mary, Your suggestion is another avenue for me to explore!    That will be a little job for tomorrow afternoon.  I have often wondered if transcribers miss people out purely by accident.    Nieve