Watermen and lightermen Apprenticeships Bindings and licences

[Greaves]

Hi

I wonder if anyone can help me track down some details about Charles Gilbert and his family. As far as I can see see, Charles (1766-1827) lived in Jacob Street, Bermondsey, with his wife, Mary (1769-1831). At the various baptisms of their children at St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, he was described as a waterman or lighterman.

I am not sure about the dates of birth for either Charles or Mary, as they are calculations based on burial records. Both appear to have been buried at St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey.

I know very little about my 4x Great Grandparents Charles and Mary, so would be grateful for any information, not least about their baptisms and marriage. I don't even know Mary's maiden name.

I'm not sure what information is available, so I would be grateful for any help.

[Bookbox]

I'm not sure what information is available, so I would be grateful for any help.

As regards the Watermen's records, the first step is to establish the date of his apprenticeship binding, which can be done on FindMyPast.

After that, the affidavit birth proof books are held at Guildhall Library in London. If you can't get there yourself, Trueflare offers a lookup service from their own transcripts, at modest cost.

http://www.trueflaregenealogy.co.uk/trueflare.html
“After a binding date has been established, it is possible to search the affidavit birth proof books, available from 1759 to date, and should reveal the date and place of birth or baptism, or sometimes both. This additional service ...”

[Betty19]

Hi I am very pleased to find this chat about watermen, lightermen
My Great grandfather came from a whole family of Lightermen who had their own boats on the Surrey docks Limehouse, Rotherhithe, Lambeth,Bermondsey,St Topry Horsleydown and the Prince Albert PH on Creek Wharf Poplar.
They were the Joyce family and there seems to be lots of them, they had a connection with the Hudson Bay trading company but I guess lots did as they were huge.
I have come to a stand still with one John Joyce
and really need a hand

Lighterman John Joyce born st Topry Horsleydown Surrey 1813
 Married  Hannah Gosling
children Eliza Charles, Ann

I think I have him bound by Henry Joyce in 1829 12th February, st Saviours
But it may just be another John Joyce
But nothing is known about John before his marriage to Hannah .
Can I order the full binding details online If I can find his father I can move on with my search.
Also, I would like to know more about the boats they had.
I have found it all very fascinating

I would appreciate any help

kind regards

Rosemary
 

[Bookbox]

Lighterman John Joyce born st Topry Horsleydown Surrey 1813

The parish is St John Horsleydown ('Topry' looks like a mistranscription?).

Married  Hannah Gosling
children Eliza Charles, Ann
I think I have him bound by Henry Joyce in 1829 12th February, st Saviours
But it may just be another John Joyce

The John JOYCE who married Hannah GOSLING in 1834 is unlikely to be the one who was bound to Henry JOYCE in 1829, because apprentices weren't normally allowed to marry whilst bound. If he completed a full apprenticeship of 7 years, this John JOYCE wouldn't have been freed until 1836.

If yours married in 1834 and was a fully licensed Thames lighterman (not all of them were), he will probably have been born a few years earlier.

Can I order the full binding details online If I can find his father I can move on with my search.

Transcripts of the binding records can be accessed on FindMyPast (with paid-for credits, or a subscription), or directly from Rob at Trueflare, who transcribed them in the first place (see the link I gave in reply #28 above). This is a starting-point, but these records will not necessarily name the father.

The original records of the Company of Watermen/Lightermen are at Guildhall Library, London, and may hold more information. Please see this link ...
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/water.htm

[Betty19]

Hi Bookbox,
Thank you for looking for me .
I have John on the on the 1841 and the 1851 census as being born abt 1813 this has thrown a spanner in the works.
Ok, I originally had him born as 1812  which would mean only a year out which can happen depending on what time of year his birthday falls, am I clutching at straws.

The thing is I have him down as binding his nephew William in 1848 then his son, Charles in 1854 his son Charles was born 1839.
I have Charles being a substitute in the Doggetts Coat & Badge Competition in 1861.

Have I got it all wrong?

Regards Rosemary

[Bookbox]

Under the circumstances, it does look likely to be the correct record. Do you have one of the children's birth certificates, showing their mother's maiden name, and confirming the 1834 marriage is the correct one?

If so, he may have been given permission to marry for some exceptional reason, or he may simply have broken the rules and would theoretically have been fined for it. In any event, he must have completed his full term of apprenticeship, and gained his freedom through the Company, in order to be able to take apprentices of his own.

[Betty19]

Yes they had three children Eliza 1837 duke street Lambeth
Charles  1839 Duke Street, Lambeth
Ann 1845.
They are not full, just church Banns so no Gosling named just John & Hannah

I was thinking maybe they had to get married so looking at children who died around that time.

Regards
Rosemary

[Bookbox]

I suspect that what you have seen are church baptism records, not birth records.

You need to order a birth certificate for whichever of John and Hannah's children is your direct ancestral line. This will confirm the mother's maiden name and ensure that you have the right marriage.

The GRO births index can be searched free at http://www.freebmd.org.uk.

Then use the index reference to order a birth certificate online at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content (£9.25 including worldwide postage). If you've not done this before and need more help, please ask.

[TONYB123]

I have a James Rugg in my family tree, but according to my information he was born 1819 , lived in Limehouse, married to Amelia Emily Rugg. He was described as a Coal Whipper. he was my gg grandfather. I would also like to know what happened to William Rugg who died in January 1869 in the River Thames.