Marriage Joseph Whitall to Elizabeth COMPLETED

[pipkim]

I am looking for the marriage of:

Joseph Edward Whitall  (b.1810 approx)  St Georges Hanover Square.
Married to
Elizabeth  ??  (b.1811 approx)  St Georges Hanover Square.

Both of their deaths were registered as St George Hanover Square, so they may not have moved around very far.

Their earliest recorded child was born 1838-9 in Marylebone. I haven't found a marriage from 1837 forwards, so can only assume they married before that date.

I am hoping to find Elizabeth's surname and the place and date of their marriage.

Hope you can help, many thanks.
Pipkim

[trish1120]

Possible from IGI;

Joseph WHITALL
Elizabeth BRIGHT
03 April 1836, Spitalfields Christ Church, Stepney, London

If you purchase the Birth Cert of one of the children born aft 1837 it will confirm Mothers maiden name.

Trish

[pipkim]

Many thanks Trish.

I have only recently started looking again into this family, as they may be a key to my Hooker family being in St George Hanover Square area via marriage/profession. I shall get Joseph's daughters birth certificate (my 2xGreat grandma) as soon as I can afford it.

Thank you for the help.
Pipkim

[trish1120]

You are welcome Pipkin.
I was just looking around and found this;

Christening;
Joseph WHITAL
07 September 1810
02 December 1810, Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
Parents, JOSEPH and ELIZABETH

He is the only on on that batch that ends 1812. Working with that I looked for another Joseph/Eliz. combo old enough to be his parents
Under WHITTLE

1841 Census
Johnson Street,
St George in the East, Middlesex
HO107/697/1/St George in the East

Joseph WHITALL, 50, Rope Maker
Elizabeth, 50
Sarah, 13
James, 9
Susan, 4
Mary, 20
Caroline, 15
All born in County

Working with this I checked for christenings. Remember ages are rounded 1841 Census.

Mary WHITTALL##
29 June 1817, Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
Parents, JOSEPH/ELIZABETH

Other siblings on batch;
RICHARD, 11 June 1815
ELIZA, 03 October 1824
SARAH, 11 November 1827##
JAMES, 27 November 1831##


## means they match with 1841 Census

The only one for a Caroline I can find is Father Samuel so it possible she is just a visitor.
It is not impossible Joseph/Elizabeth had Joseph 1810 and more children up to 1831.


Marriage;
Joseph Edward WITTALL
Elizabeth ALLEN
24 October 1809, Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London

Looks good as Joseph Edward born 1810 names 2 of children Sarah and James.

[Valda]

Hi

This Joseph Whitall?

Deaths Dec 1878  WHITALL  Joseph Edward  68  St. Geo. H. Sq.  1a 257

You need to obtain one of the children's birth certificates born after the start of civil registration to ascertain their mother's maiden name?

The censuses do not show that either this Joseph or his wife Elizabeth were born in St George Hanover Square or any part of Westminster.
If this is the family you are interested in you do need to research the family thoroughly and obtain as much information as you can from the records before you try to progress further back, particularly the further back you go. In the end you really cannot substitute 'assumptions' for evidence from records.

1891 census RG12 92 folio 37
17 New Chesterfield Street Marylebone
Elizabeth Whittall 84 Head Widow Chippenham Wiltshire
James Whittall 46 Son Coachfitter Bow London
Sarah Whittall 48 Daughter Bloomsbury London
Elizabeth Hooker 27 Granddaughter Pearl maker Clapham London

The family is difficult to find on the 1881 census.

1871 census RG10 94 folio 38
15 George Street St George Hanover Square Westminster
Joseph Whitall 61 Head Married Coachsmith St Georges Middlesex
Elizabeth Whitall 64 Wife Married Wiltshire
Sarah Whitall 28 Daughter Dressmaker Bow Middlesex
James Whitall 26 Son Coachsmith Bow Middlesex
Elizabeth Hooker 7 Granddaughter Brixton Surrey

1861 census RG9 43 folio 87?
51 Mount Street St George Hanover Square
Joseph Whitall 49 Head Married Coachsmith Stepney Middlesex
Elizabeth Whitall 53 Wife Married Chippenham Wiltshire
Joseph Whitall 22 Son Coachsmith Marylebone Middlesex
Sarah Whitall 18 Daughter Dressmaker Marylebone Middlesex
James Whitall 16 Son Coachsmith Marylebone Middlesex

1851 census HO107 1555 folio 80
Hope Cottage Stratford le Bow St George in the East Middlesex
Joseph Whital 39 Head Married Coachsmith St George in the East Middlesex
Elizabeth Whital 40 Wife Married St George in the East Middlesex
Joseph Whital 12 Son Errand Boy Marylebone Middlesex
Elizabeth Whital 10 Daughter Marylebone Middlesex
Sarah Whital 8 Daughter St George in the East Middlesex
James Whital 6 Son Bow Middlesex

1841 census HO107 675/11 folio 19
Margaret Street Marylebone
Joseph Whittall 30 Coachsmith born Middlesex
Joseph Whitall 3 born Middlesex
Elizabeth Whittall 30 born Middlesex
Elizabeth Whitall  1 born Middlesex

A possible marriage but you would need a birth certificate of one of the children to confirm their mother's maiden name was Bright. There is a baptism in Chippenham Wiltshire at about the right time for an Elizabeth Bright.

Christ Church, Spitalfields 3rd April 1836
Joseph Whitall    
Elizabeth Bright
Bachelor and spinster of this parish married by banns
both signed the register
Witnesses William and Ann Fido? Both made their mark

ELIZABETH BRIGHT  
Christening:  22 FEB 1807   Chippenham, Wiltshire
Father:  GEORGE BRIGHT  
Mother:  ELIZABETH  

Deaths Mar 1896  Whitall  Elizabeth  89  Marylebone  1a 406


5th August 1838 All Souls, Langham Place Westminster
Joseph Edward Whitall parents  Joseph Whitall and Elizabeth, 83 Margaret Street, father's occupation smith

Births Sep 1838 WHITEALL  Joseph Edward     Marylebone  1 117

same church and same details
19th April 1840 Elizabeth Whitall

Births Jun 1840   Whitall  Elizabeth     Marylebone  1 133

Joseph Whitall and Elizabeth's eldest child Joseph Edward Whitall certainly had the middle name Edward at birth, but other than Joseph seniors death registration as Joseph Edward Whitall have you any other evidence he did in fact have a middle name of Edward? Joseph on his death isn't of course the one registering his death and as his son was called Joseph Edward there may have been some confusion with his children thinking Joseph junior had the identical name to his father. The first two children's baptisms however seem to indicate this was not the case and Joseph senior did not have a middle name.


Regards

Valda

[trish1120]

Thank you for all that extensive work Valda and the conclusions .

[pipkim]

Thanks so much for the work you have done Trish and Valda.
 
My mistake on the St Georges Hanover square, that is were Joseph Whitall b.1811 died but on the 1851 census page, I fortunately down loaded as a hunch when I still has subscription, it does clearly say St Georges East.

I must try an focus on what I see and not what I think I see.
Anyway, I shall read through all your information with great interest.

Ooooh Valda, I've just seen an Elizabeth Hooker on the 1871 census information you sent, she is the grand daughter of Joseph Whitall (b.1811?) and daughter to Charles Hooker and Elizabeth Hooker nee Whitall.

I came across Joseph juniors middle name on the marriage certificate I have for Elizabeth Whitall and Charles Hooker. Joseph Whitall is down as Father, occupation CoachSmith and he is a witness and signs Joseph Edward Whitall.

Ooooooh I have just notice that the other witness is an Eliza Bright.

Wow!!!! It will take me a while to digest this information but wow again and thanks. I will need a big map of London to plot ancestors movements.

Thanks again
Pipkim

[Valda]

Hi

Are you sure the witness signing Joseph Edward Whitall is Elizabeth's father or is it her brother? Do the details she gives for her father state Joseph Whittall or Joseph Edward Whittall?

'I must try an focus on what I see and not what I think I see.'

Missing spousal name on the GRO index

Marriages Jun 1863  
BRETTON  William Hardcastle    St Geo Han Sq  1a 438    
JONES  Mary Ann     St Geo Han Sq  1a 438    
WHITALL  Elizabeth     St Geo Han Sq  1a 438

1871 census HO107 93 folio 39
18 Robert Street St George Hanover Square
Charles Hooker 32 Head Married Coachbody maker Romsey Hampshire
Elizabeth Hooker 31 Wife Married Marylebone Middlesex
Eliza Hooker 5 Daughter  St George Hanover Square Middlesex
Adelaide Hooker 3 Daughter St George Hanover Square Middlesex
Emily Hooker 1 Daughter St George Hanover Square Middlesex

Deaths Sep 1879 Hooker  Elizabeth  39  St. Geo. H. Sq.  1a 206


Regards

Valda

[pipkim]

"Are you sure the witness signing Joseph Edward Whitall is Elizabeth's father or is it her brother? Do the details she gives for her father state Joseph Whittall or Joseph Edward Whittall?"

No she states her father as Joseph Whitall Coachsmith. I see your point, the witness probably is her brother. Other marriage certificates I have are where witnesses are known to be brothers and sisters.

My task is now to collect hard evidence, but with your help I now know where to focus my search.
At present I'm not looking to go back in time, just to tie up loose ends and get a fuller picture of what life was like for my ancestors in 19th century London and what kept them there.

Many thanks
For your help
Pipkim