Look-up Census 1851, 1871, 1881, please

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

I think it's vital to get the birth certificate of at least another child to establish the mother. I have another wild theory:

I've found the death of a Catherine Sherliker aged 37 in Liverpool in 1880. This was the age on the marriage certificate. Depending on the month the Sherlikers married and the month Catherine died, this age would fit exactly. I've found out from my own research that people then actually moved about within the area more than I would have thought. Suppose this Catherine died, for example in childbirth. John went back to Wigan and took up with Catherine Hickman, the niece of Elizabeth Wood in the census of 1871. They never marry but live "over the brush" as my mother would have said. She calls herself Sherliker and has three children with John. This sort of thing was not unusual. My great-great-grandfather had a wife named Elizabeth whose age was a bit strange throughout the censuses. Then I discovered that his wife had died at the age of 37. I presumed he had married another Elizabeth - she was a widow - but could not find evidence of a marriage. He had two children with this Elizabeth, but there was a stepson, too, who still had his old surname. When my great-great-grandfather died, Elizabeth the second remarried with this same surname. In fact, she had never been married to my g.g.grandfather!! (She said she was his wife though in the censuses!) But the two children had his name, also in later censuses. I don't know, but it's a possiblility. Death certificate?? There must be some explanation for the contradictions.

No more ideas about Lily, yet. I've looked through all the births with 'S' and even with 'C' for strange spellings in Wigan. Perhaps she was born somewhere else. Even your John says he was born in Hindley and not Preston in one of the censuses. If two of the children were born in Wigan, maybe the census taker decided they all were.

In my post from 14th January, I wote William instead of Patrick. Sorry! I do this sometimes from memory and I've got so many different lines in my head.

We need to redo our bathroom, too...and the kitchen, the living room, the bedrooms.....

Regards,
LEP

We seem to be typing at the same time!

[Gem71]

Hi LEP,
Thinking the same as you, we ordered the cert;  from memory
( Catherine, wife of ? sheliker, Butcher. Wigan ) will do further checks on the cert; to-morrow.
I think i once came across a birth reg;  for a John Sherliker b,1838 in Wigan.

I agree without a birth certificate for 1 more child we will never be sure of the mother maiden name.
The John James one for 1881 maybe a no go but worth a try.

Lilly married in 1905 widowed in 1911, 7yr marriage 1 child ( Flora age4  b,  Openshaw.
Not used the mother name, maybe lost some children early in the marriage.

I think this is going to test all of your detecting skills.

Refurbishing, if your thinking of getting a shower, be very,very careful if your ordering a Daryl.
Ordering in the past was done by what door you wanted ( left hand or right door) now ordering is done by fixed panel.
This has caused mega problems as some sales people haven't got the new catalogs yet  and are still ordering from the old catalogues.
They will tell you that all cubical is revers able,  you need a conversion kit to do this. ( easier said that done, Daryl will take no responsabilty for any damage done during the conversion).

Lots of luck with the refurb, a pain while its being done but worth it in the end.

 I have to keep telling myself that, as i trip over the shower cubical and 2 convershion kits (sent the wrong one first time) sitting in my concervatory, whlst waiting for a further cubical to be deliverd with any luck to-morrow.

Take care, Gem.


 

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

There does seem to be a birth of a John Sherliker in Hindley in 1839 (HNDL/1/361) but where does he vanish to? I can't find a corresponding family in 1841 and he also doesn't  seem to have died, at least not in the Wigan area.  There was also a John Sherliker born in Preston in 1842. So "would the real John Sherliker please stand up?" (Do you know the old TV show?) I don't know why he was born in Preston on his marriage certificate and on Nelly's birth certificate, but born in Hindley in the 1881 census. Perhaps he grew up in Preston, but then remembered that he had been told he was born in Hindley....whatever! . By the way in 1861, a 22-yearold John Sherliker born in Preston - fits in with 1839 - was lodging in PRESTWICH cum Oldham in Burns Street.

The Catherine Sherliker who died in Liverpool died in the Jan/Feb/Mar quarter. Why do you think she was not John's wife? There does not seem to be anyone born Catherine Sherliker in Liverpool in the period in question and there was no Sherliker marriage to a Catherine. The only Sherliker marriage in Liverpool between 1868 and 1931 that I can find is of a Herbert Sherliker to Cecilia Laffey.  So here's my new story:
The young couple wanted to better themselves and set up a butcher's shop in Liverpool. Tragically the young wife died and the husband was forced to return home and work as a tin smith again. My g.g.grandfather (the one with the two Elizabeths) 's brother was a coal miner with no education until he suddenly became a tea dealer and in 1901 was living in a 7-bedroomed house near Mesnes Park in Wigan. Pity my own g.g.grandfather didn't show similar initiative. He continued living seven in a room in a hovel in Scholes!!
My story is substantiated by the fact that Catherine Hickman vanishes after this, and I can't find a marriage for her. Also she was supposedly born in 1850, which actually ties in better with the death date of Catherine Sherliker in 1914. The irritating thing is that although she claims to have been born in Wigan in the 1871 census, I can't find a birth. She could, of course, have been married at 18 and widowed at 20, but like Lily, she is rather elusive. If Catherine Hickman does turn out to be the mother, it's going to be almost impossible to trace her back! I know quite a bit about the Bambers/Sherrys.
I am stumped with Lily and very, very frustrated. I don't think there's a spelling of Sherliker/Selecar/Shirliker/Shorliker/Shalliker etc.   that I haven't tried. But don't forget we are dealing with transcriptions. It must be quite hard transcribing page after page of names and quite easy to overlook an entry. I don't know whether it is possible to access the original records in Wigan and look through all the records for 1884 -1887. Perhaps you can pay for a professional search. I don't know whether it is worth that much to you or your friend. I know they do searches in Ireland, but they are quite expensive. Let's keep our fingers crossed with John James Selkir(k)! The other possibility is baptism records. I'm sure most children were christened at the time. If they were Catholics as the Sherrys were, then I'd look for St Joseph's records. If the children were CofE, the I'd look at the records of St Thomas in Wallgate. This is where John Sherliker and Catherine Bamber apparently married.

I think perhaps Lily was at home in 1901. The census takers had loads to do and were dealing with people who couldn't read or write. They probably told a confused story. Nelly and Lily don't sound too different. I think the census taker started writing down Nelly's details and ended up with Lily's date of birth, i.e. he made one sister out of two. Stranger things have happened in these censuses. I correspond with a descendent of the Sherrys who is totally confused because one of the daughters married a McDonnell and they appear on various certificates as McDonnell or McDonald, which makes it really difficult to know whether you are dealing with the right family.

Keep me informed,
Linda

[Gem71]

LEP, you have been a Star, will let you know if anything turns up.

Loads of luck with  your own research.

Gem.

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

I can't forget these missing Sherliker births. I was looking for the opening times of the History Shop in Wigan and what records they have as I want to do some research of my own at the end of March and I noticed that the baptism records for both St Joseph's and St Thomas's are on microfiche for the 1880s.
I've also got some information about the Hickmans but it's quite complicated involving wrong spellings etc. If you find out details of the other children that seem to indicate that Catherine Hickman is the mother, I'll send you what I know. But for now, I don't want to confuse the issue. It seems complicated enough. By the way, I noticed an old thread from 2003. Have you been working on the missing Lily since then?

Best wishes.
LEP

[Gem71]

Hi LEP, yes this has been an on /off search for a long time for my friend.
I have dipped in and out in the past trying to help him but we have never been able to find any sign of a birth Reg; for John James or Lilly.
Regrettably my friend can no longer get about so I'm going to have to do the research at Wigan when i get a bit of time. Just need to get this refurbishment over with and i should have some time before the growing season starts.

Many thanks for the heads-up on the records at Wigan. Ill give the St Josephs records a go first as Tom (my friend) has done the St Thomas ones.

Take care, and lots of luck.

Gem.

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

Do you remember me from the beginning of the year?? I've just been deleting old emails when I came across the link to rootschat and I wondered if you had had any more luck with those Sherlickers (John James, Ellen and Lily)?? I got quite involved with them and so it would interest me if you got any further. After all, more records have been published over the year.

A Happy New Year to you!
Linda (LEP1950)

[LEP1950]

Dear Gem,

Don't know whether you are ever going to read this, but doing something else, I stumbled across the birth of a Jane Hickman in Wigan in 1853 (WIG/39/104). The interesting thing is that the maiden name of the mother is given as SHERRY. You might remember that Catherine Bamber's mother's name was Ann Sherry. I can't find a marriage of a Sherry to a Hickman, but it could be that the mother of Jane Hickman was a widow with the maiden name Sherry. I think it's highly possible that she had more children, perhaps a Catherine, who was Hickman from the beginning or became Hickman through a second marriage. Anyway, there were not all that many Sherrys in Wigan and most of them were related. It is possible that Catherine Bamber and Catherine Hickman were cousins. If Catherine Bamber did die in Liverpool around 1880, it's possible that her cousin stepped in to look after John James and one thing led to another... Fact is that Catherine Hickman vanishes.
There is more intertwining. OWEN SHERRY (Ann Bamber nee Sherry's brother) married CATHERINE WOOD in 1842. JOHN WOOD (probably her brother) married ELIZABETH HICKMAN in 1839. This is the aunt that CATHERINE HICKMAN was living with in Wallgate in 1871, i.e. Elizabeth Wood.

I know it's very complex, but I've got interested in the case again.

Please write!
Linda