Look-up Census 1851, 1871, 1881, please

[Gem71]

Hi LEP,
Really appreciate all the info and your time.

Very informing the fact that Ann Sherry was RC,  Catherines  son John JamesSherliker went on to marry a Roman Catholic. We always assumed that's where the RC part entered the family.
Now I'm thinking maybe not and we need to concentrate on RC records at Wigan.
Do you have any info on whats available there, did the sherry family favour any particular Church.

Yes we have the marriage cert; for John & Catherine, don't have it to hand at the moment, as i said in an earlier post this is not my F/Tree, I'm trying to help a friend.
From memory.

John Sherliker 39-Bachelor-Tinplate Worker-b, Preston. ( he has been a bit economic there, he was b, 1839)
Catherine Bamber 37-spinster-b, Wigan.
Ft, of Groom, John Sherliker-Cotton spinner-b.Preston, Deceased.
Ft, of Bride, William Bamber-Labourer-b, (not sure need to check,could be Thornton or Wigan) Deceased.
Both John&Catherine gave place of residence as Miry Lane, Wigan.
Both made a x.

!881 census - No1 Hay St
 head John Shelecar 39 Tinplate worker b Hindley
Wife Cath 37 b,Wigan.
1891/1901/ the same family are in Ardwick, Chorlton, Manchester.

1911, Catherine is living with her son John Jamesage as Head-Age 30, and his widowed sister Lilly Ward (Sherliker)age 26.

John died in 1901 Age 60 and is buried at Philips Parks, Salford.
Catherine died 1914 Age64 and is buried at Gorton Cemetery, also buried at Gorton - Catherine's daughter Ellen Dewsbury (Sherkiker)1946, age 64.

marriage reg; for Lilly she is calling herself Lillean, any Lilleans in the Sherry family.

Hope you get a breakthrough soon, lots of luck and thanks for your help.

Regards, Gem71

[LEP1950]

Hi Gem,

I was typing a note at the same time as you, so now I'm going to review what I wrote in the light of what you've written.
I found the Sherliker family in 1891 with children John James, Nellie and Lilley living in Ardwick, Manchester.  Only John and Nelly are listed in 1901. I found the birth of Ellen Sheleker (sic) in 1882 (WIG/144/374). Is this the certificate you've got? If you have the marriage certificate of William and Catherine and her father's name is William, then it is the Catherine Bamber with the Sherry ancestors. Miry Lane is down Wallgate and William Bamber (born in Thornton) died in that area. If John and Catherine had their children baptised in a RC church,  then it would probably have been in St Joseph's. This church is now unfortunately closed, but I believe that the parish priest in St Jude's is quite helpful. Perhaps, they also have records in the history shop in Wigan. There are no records of St Joseph's online. I don't know of any Lileans in the Sherry family, but perhaps the  Lily bit is from the Bambers. No answer to the Catherine Hickman mystery yet!!




Keep hunting!
LEP

[Gem71]

Hi LEP
, We have a further Wallgate connection.

John James WW1 record stated he was born Wallgate, Wigan.
Ill have a chat with my fried to-morrow and get Ellen (Nellie) birth details.

Im starting to feel a lot more confident about being on the right track.
Do you know where in Ireland the Sherrys came from and have you had any luck with Irish records.

Im off to bed now, people my age(see aviator) should be tucked up by now.

Good Nigh and God Bless.
Gem71

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

A further Wallgate connection is that a Catherine Hickman was living at 17b Wallgate Street in 1871. She was 20 and living with her aunt. Although it says b. Wigan, this does not have to be true. I know from books I've read on the topic that the people sometimes said they were born in the place they were living at although this was not true.  The previous address on the census was MIRY LANE. In 1881 Catherine Hickman, aged 30, but not b. in Wigan, is living with her parents Charles and Ann in ARDWICK MANCHESTER. Weren't the Sherliker family also in Ardwick? She seems to have married James Hughes in Aug/Sept/Oct of that year. When was Nellie born? In 1882? Do you think she was a love child? Another possibility is that Catherine was widowed and that John Sherliker and Catherine Bamber took in the child. They could have been distantly related. I don't think they went in for formal adoptions much in those days.

I may have stumbled across JOHN JAMES. In the national birth registers there is a JOHN JAMES SELKIR (written in a second entry as SELKIRK), born in Wigan in 1881 in July/Aug/Sept (WIG/138/195). The name, the place and the year are correct and at least the first version of the name is fairly similar. I think it's worth a try. If you go to Wigan yourself and say you only want the certificate if the parents are John and Catherine, you sometimes don't have to pay and you know from elimination that this is the wrong James. However, I have a hunch that this could be him. No luck with Lily, yet.

I don't know where the Sherrys were from although I know that a lot of them came from Armagh. I only have a tenuous connection to them as Bridget Sherry, b. 1837 married my great-grandfather's brother. I just like playing detective.

Have a nice day,
LEP

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

I think I was a bit too hasty with Catherine Hickman. The one in Wallgate and the one in Manchester are not the same one. I should have looked the Manchester one up in the 1871 census first. She's there with parents Charles and Ann.
I can't find JOHN JAMES SELKIR(K) in the 1891 census, which means he either died or he is perhaps your JOHN JAMES. I also found an ELIZABETH A. (presumably Ann) SHALLIKER born in Hulme Manchester in 1885 (HUL/252/95). Perhaps Lily wasn't born in Wigan. Lily is a short form of Elizabeth as well as of Lilian. At her wedding, she perhaps said her name was Lily Ann. She also does not seem to be in the 1891 census so she could be your Lily or dead. It's a pity you can only get the parents from the birth certificates. It's so expensive to keep on buying the wrong ones.

Regards,
LEP

[Gem71]

Hi LEP,
May thanks for your time and your help,.

What a confusing lot the Sherliker are and all those variants don't help.
 (My friend says there were Shalliker in Salford when he was growing up but no relation) I'm not so sure.

John James is at RG12/3168/54/14 same address again in 1901 bit this time Nellie has lost a few years and Lilley is missing.
The next time i locate Lilley is her marriage Reg: 1905 Preswich, to a John Ward and she is calling herself, ( Liillean).

1911 and she is widowed age 26, living with John James and their mother Catherine 64,widow,married33yrs, 3 children to the marriage, 3 children still living.
All say b, Wigan.

I couldn't find a James Bamber with a Catherine age8, Did find a John Bamber with Catherine age 8, did you mean John, not James?

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

Don't keep thanking me - I'm looking because I'm intrigued myself. I pride myself on being a bit of a detective and I have helped a few people to get a bit further back with their research. I can't do anything more with my own lines until I buy some more certificates and do a few look-ups in Wigan at the end of March when I'll be spending a week in the town I grew up in but left at the age of 18. And I do have a kind of link to the Sherry/Bambers.

Yes, I did mean John. I was writing from memory without my scribblings and got a bit confused. However, if the death date of Catherine Sherliker is correct, then she was born in 1847. This is when the Bamber/Sherry Catherine was born. I know her age goes a bit haywire in the censuses, but that's usual. I looked at the 1861 census again and I'm convinced that the age of her sister Jane is wrong. She is described as being 17 and a scholar!! I don't think they went in much for A-levels in those circles in those days!!! Actually, A-levels didn't exist, but you know what I mean. They were most likely illiterate. Sister Jane seems to have married a Michael Murphy in 1872, but they seem to disappear, although I haven't looked intensely. The youngest sister Mary Ann b. 1864 probably married John Matthews in 1886. I thought perhaps the absent Lilly may have been staying with a relative in 1901. I'd also already seen the entry for Ardwick and noticed she was missing. By the way, none of the above marriages seem to be CofE marriages. They had to have the registrar present and begin with ROW.... I'm sure all the Bamber/Sherry children were Catholics. In the Wigan cemetry index almost all the Bambers are CofE except the William who died at 12 days (Wiliam and Ann's son) and Ann Bamber nee Sherry herself and about 6 children I take to be the children of James Bamber (Catherine's brother) who married Annie Burns in 1886 (ROW/62/181). That's a sad story - they seem to have lost all their children in infancy and are still childless in 1901.

I think you should try getting that birth certificate of John James Selkir (1) born 1881 in Wigan. This is only the transcription of the handwriting on the birth certificate and it could be that the actual handwriting says Shelkir or something like that. I don't think every birth was registered in the 1840s but I think that by the 1880s, people knew that they had to register births. I can't understand how two children can disappear completely. I don't think Lilly was born as Lilly. Lil(l)ian also did not seem to be a popular name at the time. I can't find any Bamber or Sherry Lilians although it was common to name children after relatives. I wouldn't dismiss the Elizabeth A. Shalliker offhand. If you are no wiser by the end of March, I could ask about John James in the registry office. Since I'll be buying several certificates, perhaps they will do one look-up for nothing. They've always been nice when I've been there. Or are you in Wigan yourself?

The other mystery is the Catherine Hickman who was in Wallgate in 1871. No Catherine/Catharine/Cathrine/Katie Hickman(n) married or died in Lancashire between 1871 and 1895, but she doesn't seem to be in the censuses after 1871 either. The only marriage is the one of the Manchester Catherine to someone called Hughes. "Curiouser and curiouser..", as Alice would have said in Wonderland. I don't know what she would have said about all the census incongruities.

Just one question: What's the address on Nelly's birth certificate?

And keep digging in a double sense!
LEP

P.S. I had a friend at primary school who was called Kathleen. It was only when she needed her birth certificate when she wanted to get married that she discovered her birth name was actually Teresa Catherine! As a tip to solving the Lilly-problem!

[Gem71]

Hi LEP

Sorry for the delay in getting back, bathroom refurbish turning into a night mare.

 Birth Certificate address  for (Ellen Sheleker 1882)
No 10 James St, Miry Lane, Wigan.

Just had a look at the marriage cert; for Catherine Bamber to John Sherliker 1879.
Witnesses, Martha Walch and Edward Ingleman.

Thought they maybe useful.

I agree about getting John James Cert, we can get to Wigan, just need to sort this bathroom  out first.

Gem71

[LEP1950]

Hi GEM,

I think it's vital to get the birth certificate of at least another child to establish the mother. I have another wild theory:

I've found the death of a Catherine Sherliker aged 37 in Liverpool in 1880. This was the age on the marriage certificate. Depending on the month the Sherlikers married and the month Catherine died, this age would fit exactly. I've found out from my own research that people then actually moved about within the area more than I would have thought. Suppose this Catherine died, for example in childbirth. John went back to Wigan and took up with Catherine Hickman, the niece of Elizabeth Wood in the census of 1871. They never marry but live "over the brush" as my mother would have said. She calls herself Sherliker and has three children with John. This sort of thing was not unusual. My great-great-grandfather had a wife named Elizabeth whose age was a bit strange throughout the censuses. Then I discovered that his wife had died at the age of 37. I presumed he had married another Elizabeth - she was a widow - but could not find evidence of a marriage. He had two children with this Elizabeth, but there was a stepson, too, who still had his old surname. When my great-great-grandfather died, Elizabeth the second remarried with this same surname. In fact, she had never been married to my g.g.grandfather!! (She said she was his wife though in the censuses!) But the two children had his name, also in later censuses. I don't know, but it's a possiblility. Death certificate?? There must be some explanation for the contradictions.

No more ideas about Lily, yet. I've looked through all the births with 'S' and even with 'C' for strange spellings in Wigan. Perhaps she was born somewhere else. Even your John says he was born in Hindley and not Preston in one of the censuses. If two of the children were born in Wigan, maybe the census taker decided they all were.

In my post from 14th January, I wote William instead of Patrick. Sorry! I do this sometimes from memory and I've got so many different lines in my head.

We need to redo our bathroom, too...and the kitchen, the living room, the bedrooms.....

Regards,
LEP