The Lewis Conundrum - update 3, I am now claiming two of them!

[kathb]

Hello Genehunter and liverbird
I will try and see what newspapers they have at the Archives next week, good idea.
Jean, I discounted the 1778 Mary as she died aged 40 in 1831, which makes her birth approx 1790.  I found a birth for Mary in Aston by Sutton and this shows her father to be Samuel. On her and Joseph (number 1) parish record of marriage one of the witnesses is shown as Samuel Okell.  This is also a name they give their eldest son.
Thanks you both for your interest, I really appreciate any ideas and other avenues to pursue and thank you for the time you are spending on this trying to help me sort out the two Joseph's.
One other thought I had yesterday was that Joseph signed the marriage certificate himself.  If I can find another signature from Joseph related to the pub and they are the same, I might be on a 'winner'  - although I am no expert in handwriting.
Thanks again - I will keep Rootschatters updated on this as I continue the search.
Kathb

[garstonite]

Having a brainstorm,
noticed your gt gt gt grandfather was a Robert. So wondered if maybe he was named after wife Mary's, father.

I found another Mary Okell on IGI, born in Gt Budworth, where you mentioned they married. One slight difference is her age being born in 1778, that makes her 29 (nearer to Joe's age) her father was a Robert, no mother mentioned unfortunately. Perhaps worth another look see, you never know.
This doesn't help with the 2 Joe problem, sadly.

Jean

also a birth for Mary Okell 18th April 1783 in Davenham (6 miles from G Budworth) parents Peter and Alles (presume Alice).....on CPRDb ..doesn`t fit in with your Mary who died aged 40 though...I know this doesn`t help with Lewis`s , but as you are very thorough I thought you might like to see this...allan

ADDED...also on CPRDb

There`s a marriage 31st march 1800 between Joseph Lewis and Elizabeth Sidley...both residences as BEBIP...in the parish of Bebington..don`t know where BEBIP is?? Bebington is transcribed as BEBI...anyway...i don`t know whether this confuses matters or is a possible Joseph / Elizabeth marriage you are looking for....allan

[Gene Hunter]

BEBIP is Bebbington parish.

[kathb]

Thanks Garstonite and Genhunter.  I think this is search is going to take some time - I will look up the Bebington marriage next week at the archives and see if this turns up anything.  I am still hunting for either the deaths or marriages of the following of the girls
Mary baptised:1812
Ann baptised: 1815
Elizabeth baptised: 1818 and Sarah b: 1826
The other curiosity I have is the baptisms of the three  children all recorded on the same date in 1826 namely Fanny, Sarah and John.  I realise that families often had them baptised in a 'job lot' so to speak, but this is quite a gap from 1818 so they may have been a few years old when baptised. 
I know from Fanny's marriage certificate of 1841 that she was 19 so she would have been born circa 1822.
 Is there an elder brother somewhere named Joseph who marries an Elizabeth - this would make the younger children (on the 1841) cousins of Mary, Samuel and Robert.  This brings me back to the marriage that I have for Joseph and Mary Okell which I have as 1807.  I am begining to wonder if I have the wrong marriage and that there is an earlier one for a Joseph and Mary which would have produced more offspring than those I have of Mary, Samuel and Robert and allowed for an elder brother named Joseph??
Anymore ideas Rootchatters please? 
Regards
Kathb

[kathb]

Hi, Rootschatters, I think I have now traced Joseph born 1813.  I will send for his marriage certificate to see if he also states his father was Joseph Inn Keeper.  I have looked at my notes again and this is another birth which shows in the ministers notes as mother Mary and then when entered in the 1813 register shows as mother Elizabeth.
I also re-visited the census data for Samuel Lewis and the child 'he took in' and he is described as Samuel Lewis Edwards nephew throughout his life.  He also in his Will leaves all of his assests to Samuel Lewis's children who he describes as cousins. I have copies of Samuel Lewis Edwards birth cert and the marriage of his mother Margaret.  the age of Margaret on her marriage certificate matches with Margaret shown on the Parish register as born 1816 but is recorded with the parents Joseph and Elizabeth.  Margaret shows her father as Joseph Inn Keeper.
SO ROOTSCHATTER - should I be brave enough to decide that this family on the 1841 census are all siblings.  I know that the short gap in baptisms of Margaret and Elizabeth, appears to short, but the baptisms could be late.
Help what do you all think?  I really do want to cross reference all of this and not leave my descendants with any doubt.
Ideas again welcome.
Regards
Kathb

[JDGen]

Hi Kathb,

Just had a quick look through this thread, the mention of the dreaded LEWIS surname put me off initially! 

Who, where and when do you think Joseph 1813 married?  Or have I missed it....

Jean

PS.  Also have some LEWIS's in the Frodsham area, had married a daughter off and chased the family through the census records only to find that she had died aged 9!

[Gardener]

The age of Margaret on her marriage certificate matches with Margaret shown on the Parish register as born 1816 but is recorded with the parents Joseph and Elizabeth.  Margaret shows her father as Joseph Inn Keeper.
SO ROOTSCHATTER - should I be brave enough to decide that this family on the 1841 census are all siblings.  I know that the short gap in baptisms of Margaret and Elizabeth, appears to short, but the baptisms could be late.

But you had the following:

Margaret          1/9/1816     13/9/1816        Joseph/Elizabeth
Elizabeth          15/3/1817   10/12/1817      Joseph/Mary

so you can't argue late baptism can you? The problem is that the births are only 6 1/2months apart which is really not on. You would have to argue that Elizabeth's birth month was wrong :-(

[kathb]

Hello Gardener and Jean
I know this gap between Margaret and Elizabeth seems to continually link to their being two Joseph's I am clutching at straws here aren't I.
Gardener I think you are absolutely correct in that the only way there could be only one Joseph and the transcriptions are saying Elizabeth when I want them to be Mary is that the month of birth is incorrectly recorded.
Jean, the Joseph I have picked up is via census data.
In 1841 there is a Joseph in Goostrey aged 27 gamekeeper,  with Charlotte aged 25 and a William aged 1 all born in county
I then followed up on the 51 and found them still in Goostrey and Joseph gives place of birth as Tarporley.
On Cheshire BMD and matched on Freebmd, there is a marriage for Joseph and Charlotte (Wood)in 1840 at St Mary's Sandbach.
On the 61, they are in Knutton, Staffordshire and Joseph (aged 47)describes his birth place as Tarporley again
On the 71 Joseph (aged 57)describes his birthplace as Cotebrook.  This is what makes me think he is 'my Joseph' of 1813 birth.
I have sent for the marriage certificate - although once again I might get father Joseph Innkeeper. 
I am going to the Cheshire Archives again on Thursday and will go back to the ministers notebook and see if I can find any explanation why these births have recorded in the notebook mother mary and then on the 1813 Rose type register Elizabeth.  I need to look carefully at the notebook again as I am sure that the writing in this was different than that in the 1813 Rose type register.  The entries in the Rose Type register are all by the Curate.
I really appreciate all of your help.
The search continues
Regards
Kathb

[JDGen]

Hi Kathb,

There is a will for Samuel LEWIS of Rushton, Cotebrook - Innkeeper proved in 1867.  Sorry if this has already been posted. 

Hmm, a quick glance back through the thread suggest that you already have this.  Have you thought about looking at other earlier Lewis wills from the areas you know about? - for example, Robert LEWIS, Helsby, yeoman, 1806.  You can look at them while you are at the Records Office.

I'll have a look through my LEWIS'S for clues!

Jean