The Lewis Conundrum - update 3, I am now claiming two of them!

[Gene Hunter]

It is highly possible that he got it wrong when transcribing it, I have a marriage certificate from Manchester Cathedral where the father's name has been put in place of the groom's name.

[kathb]

Hi, Genehunter,  I am really hoping that he did get it wrong and that they are all the same family.  The connections are so strong with Samuel 'taking in or giving jobs' to so many of them that on looking it does seem to be the same family.  I am however still not totally convinced that they are all the same family as I can't prove it conclusively.  The six months between Margaret and Elizabeth's births seems to say that they are not sisters - although I can't rule out a birth at six months (which survived in those days - could be possible !) because she wasn't baptised until she would have been 9 months old.  As I have only found two marriages for Margaret and Frances and not the other girls in the house I can't establish anything further at this stage.  I also can't find deaths for the remaining girls, in the local church and need to widen my search for both of them.  I really appreciate the help that Rootschatters are giving me on this one it is becoming like the search for the Holy Grail.
Regards and thanks
Kathb

[Gene Hunter]

Have you checked the graves, that might give and indication of who is related to whom.

[kathb]

Hi, Genehunter, I have had several windy and wet trips to the graveyard but could not find any stones with the Lewis last name.  I will however put a post on this board and see if anyone has any knowledge of Memorial Inscriptions for Tarporley.
Thanks for your continuing interest on this, I am determined to crack this one. Thanks again
Kathb

[alpinecottage]

Given the gap between Margaret and Elizabeth of only 6 months it does look again as if there are two Joseph's.

I think it is virtually impossible that Margaret and Elizabeth could be sisters with only six months between the births.  Not only would a 25/26 week baby be most unlikely to survive in those days, the mother would have had to conceive immediately after the first birth to even allow the pregnancy to last for 25 or 26 weeks.  It is possible that one or both of the birth dates is recorded incorrectly of course.

The unmentioned possibility is that there was Joseph, Mary and Elizabeth living as a "menage a trois" at the pub

[Gardener]

The unmentioned possibility is that there was Joseph, Mary and Elizabeth living as a "menage a trois" at the pub

 

You are being so thorough kathb!

I tried to find a Mary born Helsby in 1812 but could not see anything to fit. I expect you have tried too.
Don't suppose Samuel 's or Martha's wills say anything handy like "my best dress goes to my sister X's children"?
There is always the chance that a will of some other relative holds the key. Sometimes the spinsters leave things and name nephews and nieces but it calls for a lot of work to check them. Pity that Cheshire don't have will abstracts online  but at least the have the will's year and deceased which is more helpful than some places.

[kathb]

Hi, Gardener and alpinecottage, thanks for the ideas. 
Good idea alpinecottage, menage a trois never thought of that one!  Somehow I don't think they would have got within calling distance of the church for the baptism's let alone inside - but you never know!!!!
I have Samuel's Will and he leaves everything to his wife Martha and son - guess who? another Joseph. 
Mary is on an extracted record on the IGI and I checked this against St Lawrence (Frodsham) parish records and it checks out Mary daughter of Joseph and Mary.  I also checked the record P009731 for siblings and Samuel b:1808 and Robert b: 1810 come up with the same parents.  Frodsham was the parish church for Helsby and Samuel and Robert declare on census records that they were born in Helsby.
I can't find a Mary with birth in Helsby on any later census than the 1841 so she either died or married.  She is not in the parish records for St Helens Tarporley and I need to look further afield to see if I can find her. 
If only another one of this family on the 1841 had left a Will life might be easier. 
I notice I have a message left for my request for MI's at Tarporley, I will have a look and see if someone might have come up with something.
Thanks for you help
Regards
Kathb

[Gene Hunter]

Are there any local newspapers from the time that may have reported the births/baptisms?

[liverbird09]

Having a brainstorm,
noticed your gt gt gt grandfather was a Robert. So wondered if maybe he was named after wife Mary's, father.

I found another Mary Okell on IGI, born in Gt Budworth, where you mentioned they married. One slight difference is her age being born in 1778, that makes her 29 (nearer to Joe's age) her father was a Robert, no mother mentioned unfortunately. Perhaps worth another look see, you never know.
This doesn't help with the 2 Joe problem, sadly.

Jean