The Lewis Conundrum - update 3, I am now claiming two of them!

[Gene Hunter]

There are two marriages that may be of interest

Joseph Lewis = Elizabeth Sibley 31/03/1800, Bebbington, St. Andrew both otp by licence Wit. John Sibley, Margaret Davies

Joseph Lewis = Elizabeth Chesters 23/10/1823, Malpas, St. Oswald

[Gene Hunter]

There is also

Joseph Lewis = Martha Brookes 15/7/1798, Bunbury

[kathb]

Hi, Genehunter, just back from the Registrars Office having ordered Joseph Lewis died 1840 death certificate.  I will look up the marriages that you have found at the Chester Records and Archives tomorrow. 
What is really throwing me with this conundrum is the two Joseph Lewis Inn Keepers in the same vicinity with all of their offspring living in the same pub in 1841. 
On several of the census data Samuel obviously gives jobs to the offspring of Joseph and Elizabeth although he is the son of Joseph and Mary. 
Another thought I had was that maybe (and its a very big longshot here) is that Mary had another name being Elizabeth.  Something that I did not note when I transcribed the parish registers was whether it was the same minister who recorded all of the births.  I am going to recheck this tomorrow.  If they were say- the curate recorded the births of Joseph and Elizabeth's children and the vicar recorded the births of Joseph and Mary's children (or vice versa) this could be a 'clerical error' - sorry for the pun.
Unfortunately for me Mary Lewis nee Okell, died before civil registration and the parish records do not state the husband.  I need to locate her birth.  If she is the one I picked up on the IGI she may be the one born 1790. I need to see if her baptism record on the parish records shows any other names. 
This really is a wonderful puzzle, which I am determined to crack.
I will also look again at the quarter session records to see if I can find more than one licence issued to a Joseph Lewis in the vicinity.  I found the one Joseph in 1822 quite near the top of the records and if I had my thinking hat on would have continued to look through all of them for that year. 
Do you know if civil registration marriage certificates always showed if the father of the bride was deceased?  The ones I have for Margaret and Frances both state Joseph Inn Keeper and don't show him as deceased.  Frances marriage was in 1841 and Margaret in 1849.  This could help in my search.  If their father Joseph was still alive on these dates it might help in the search and completely rule out Joseph who died in 1840 as their father.
Any help very much appreciated.
Regards
Kathb

[Gene Hunter]

Hi,

The Joseph and Martha of Bunbury can be eiminated, they lived and died in Bunbury.  The father of the bride or groom on marriage certificates if dead is not always registered as such.

[kathb]

Hi, Genehunter, I am still on the search.  I will let Rootschatters know any results I find after my search tommorrow at the Cheshire Archives/Record office
Regards
Kathb

[kathb]

Hello to all the Rootschatters who are trying to help me on this.
Just to update you
Yesterday I searched all of the Tarporley St Helens registers for all the Lewis's and noted them all - a mere 5 hours! On the film I found a 'notebook' completed by the vicar.  In this he states that the parents of Joseph born 1813 are noted as Joseph and Elizabeth but on the registers noted as Joseph and Mary.  However all of the births are written in the register by the curate, so who is right?
I also rechecked who had recorded all of the births and it was the same curate.

I could not find a marriage for a Joseph and Elizabeth in Tarporley so need to widen the search - now going to try Little Budworth on my next visit to the archives in two weeks.

I know that there is a Joseph Lewis on the Tithe Maps of Cheshire who had quite large farm tenancies, which of the Joseph's he is I don't know. I am now going to send for the Wills of all of the Joseph Lewis's regardless of year of death in the hope that there may a clue in them somewhere.

I also could not find a marriage for any of the girls (other than the ones for Frances and Margaret - of which I have copies of their Marriage Certificates) again I need to widen the search.

I couldn't find Burial records for Mary and Sarah either.

I checked the Aston Parish Register for the birth of Mary Okell wife of Joseph number 1 and she does not have another name recorded so I don't thinks she was ever known as Elizabeth.

The marriage of Joseph with Elizabeth Chesters in Malpas in 1823 doesn't help much at the moment.  It does show that this Joseph was of the parish of marbury. 
I now await the copy of Joseph Lewis (number 1) Death Cert to see if that sheds any light on this conundrum.

P.S this is not a hobby it is an obssession!!!
Regards and thanks for all of the help.
Kathb

[liverbird09]

Hi Kathb, thanks for keeping us informed,
I still find myself checking out the Lewis's, when my own ancestors are giving me a hard time. I notice you have Birkenhead links, did you check out the other marriage in Bebington, between a Joe and Eliza?

I know what you mean about it becoming obsessive, my ancestors are filling my thoughts ever more frequently.
Jean

[kathb]

Hi, Jean, I didn't have the time yesterday to check out the Bebington link.  It is on my list for my next visit in two weeks.
I really am very grateful to all of the Rootschatters for their assistance with this ever increasing puzzle. 
My Birkenhead links come further on in the late 1800's but there could still be a link there and I am not ruling this one out. I have just ordered three Wills of Joseph Lewis's from 1770 to 1850. I hope that one of the three might give me some clues.
 I will keep everyone updated with how I am getting on in the hope that my deliberations may help others.
Regards
Kathb

[kathb]

Death Certificate for Joseph Lewis (number 1) shows the following:
Where and when died, 20th October 1840 at Rushton, name and surname, Joseph Lewis Male 63 years Occupation: Farmer and Inn Keeper, Cause of Death: Decay of Nature Signature, Description and residence of Informant: Mary Lewis in attendance Rushton, When Registered: Third of November 1840.
This again fits with 'my Joseph' (number 1) as he was born in 1777.  Mary I am sure is his daughter and the eldest family member shown on the 1841 census when she is described as publican.
I still do not have any absolute proof that there are two Joseph's here other than the parish records showing a wife named Elizabeth of those children younger than Mary on this census, (other than Elizabeth).  The parish records show her as the daughter of Joseph and Mary b: 1817.  As stated in my previous posts as the curate got one of the parental names wrong in transcribing from the Vicars notebook did he get most of them wrong?
I also found the baptism of John which is 19/8/1827.
Looking at the space between these baptism's shows the following:

Name               birth             baptism            Parents recorded                                Joseph                                28/10/1813       Both Joseph/Elizabeth and Joseph Mary
Ann                  1/3/1815     23/6/1815        Joseph/Elizabeth
Margaret          1/9/1816     13/9/1816        Joseph/Elizabeth
Elizabeth          15/3/1817   10/12/1817      Joseph/Mary
Fanny, Sarah, Richard all baptised on 14/3/1826 Joseph/Elizabeth
John                                    19/8/1827         Joseph/Elizabeth
Given the gap between Margaret and Elizabeth of only 6 months it does look again as if there are two Joseph's.
I now feel as if I am going round in ever decreasing circles.  One minute almost sure that there is only one Joseph and then there are two again.
There is no Will in Cheshire for a Joseph Lewis fitting around his death date but I have sent for all within 60 years just in case.
Has anyone any more ideas please?
Regards
Kathb