The Lewis Conundrum - update 3, I am now claiming two of them!

[kathb]

Please can anyone give me any advice on trying to sort out this conundrum?

Joseph Lewis born Helsby 1777 married Mary Okell at Great Budworth in 1807
The IGI and verified in the Parish Register shows the following offspring
Samuel born 1808
Robert born 1810 (my ggg grandfather)
Mary born 1812

On the 1841 Samuel and Robert are residing in Rushton and Spurstow respectively

I know that Samuel went on to be the Inn Keeper of the Alvanley Arms (and this shows on the current website of this hostelry, later census and his Will).   It also shows that Joseph Lewis was the publican in 1822 – I have verified this with the licence from Cheshire Archives and Record Office.

On the 1841 census as a publican, Coat Brook, Rushton,  (ages rounded down) there is:
 Mary 25, Ann 25, Margaret 20, Sarah 15, Frances 15, John 15, Richard 14

Initially I wondered if this was more of the same family, given the name Mary and the connection with Coat Brook (Cotebrook) later on.

However the Parish Register for Tarporley St.Helens shows the following:
Joseph son of Joseph and Mary Oct 28th 1813 father Inn Keeper, Coat Brook
Ann daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth 1st March 1815 father Inn Keeper, Coat Brook
Margaret daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth 13th September 1816, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
Elizabeth daughter of Joseph and Mary 15th March 1817 father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
Fanny and Sarah daughters of Joseph and Elizabeth 14th March 1826, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
John son of Joseph and Elizabeth 14th March 1826, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook

The pub website states that Samuel was a cousin of Joseph.  However my Samuel was a son of a Joseph.
There was only one pub in the hamlet.  Joseph senior did not remarry.  Mary his wife died 9th June 1831 aged 40, Joseph died 23rd October 1840 aged 63.

There is with out doubt a strong family connection here for the following reasons:
Margaret had a son Samuel Lewis Edwards, who was brought up at the pub and spent the whole of his life there with Samuel Lewis the Inn Keeper and later his widow and then his son.
Census data shows Frances Franks (nee Lewis) also resided at the pub in  1851 and also a John Lewis.  These are siblings of Margaret. 

So, would there be two Joseph’s related but both described as running the pub as one Joseph is married to a Mary and the other to an Elizabeth?  I did initially wonder if Joseph had married twice, but as you can see from the dates Mary  was alive until 1831.  The  timing of the childrens births makes it very difficult to believe that the curate/vicar got the name of the mother wrong and certainly not on several occasions.  I then wondered if my Joseph was the father of the second Joseph, but he names a son Joseph in 1813.

Ideas welcome.
Thanks
Kathb

P.S.  I did wonder if Joseph senior (1777) might have been married before Mary as he would have been 30 when he married her.  Can anyone see any possible first marriage  possibly Frodsham but could also be Cheshire?

[liverbird09]

Hi kathb,

Phew, I see your problem. Just spent a while checking various options.
Do you think you have 2 families mixed together?

In my family tree I have a publican listed in 1841 census. I found out she didn't have a pub as such, she was listed as a beerseller in the Chester trade directory. A lot of people opened up their own homes as inns at that time in Chester.
Just a thought,  maybe your 1841 with Mary, Ann, Margaret, Sarah Frances and John(triplets?) Richard, are a different family to the one you are tracing.

I found a Joseph Lewis married Elizabeth Chesters 1823 Malpas.
Another Joseph married Elizabeth Sidlow 1800 Bebington?
Also your Joseph and Mary Okell with children Mary, Robert, Sam all bFrodsham.

I hope I haven't confused you further.
Good luck with it.
Jean

[kathb]

Jean, thanks for spending time on this.
on the 1841 they are all in the same household, although not the same family as the baptisms show different mothers there is obviously some strong family connection here.  The three baptisms were on the same day, but some families did have the children baptised as a 'job lot'.  I also have found the marriages that you did.  I have ruled out the Eliz Chesters as a mother as the majority of these births are pre- 1823. I haven't followed up on the Eliz Sidlow marriage but will look next time I am in the Record office.  Its one of those puzzles that will take some time.  Frances also shows on her marriage certificate of 1841 that her father is Joseph Lewis, Inn Keeper.  It does look as if there are two Joseph's who are related for Samuel to 'take in' the son of Margaret and give a job to John.   He later on gives a job to my GG Uncle William so this again proves the families are interlinked in some way.  I am going to try to see if I can find if Joseph seniors father Richard had a siblings or nephews with the name Joseph.  I am fast running out of options.
Once again thank you for your time I really appreciate any ideas Rootschatters may have.
Regards
Kathb

[liverbird09]

After taking another look, it has certainly got me foxed. 
The day to day running of the Alvanley would need a lot of staff, so I guess they would keep it in the family. I had a peek at the history to see if it helped, it is intriguing isn't it?
I would be interested to know the outcome, these family knots take some fathoming.
 
I'm sure someone on RC will be able to unravel it for you.

Jean

[kathb]

thanks Jean, there has to be an answer here somewhere.  I am hoping someone has more lateral thinking than me and can give me some new clues or hints of were to look.
Thanks for your time and interest
Regards
Kathb

[Gene Hunter]

On the 1851 census Samuel is still at Coat Brook, Rushton aged 43, a farmer of 3 acres, born Helsby with his wife Alice 42, born Rushton also present is a John Lewis 30, servant(farm labourer), born Rushton.

[kathb]

Thanks Genehunter, I have all of the census and bmd records, I just can't find the link with the two Joseph's
Regards
Kathb

[Gardener]

It is like one of those horrid maths problems that they used to give us for "fun" in the last week of term!!

I just have  a load of questions I am afraid:

1. Do you know who was named on Joseph's death (1840) certificate?
2. Is it certain that Mary who took over the pub 1840-43 was the daughter of Joseph who had it previously? Is that recorded on the licence, a will, or what?
3. How reliable is the information that Samuel was a cousin? Cousin of whom?

Just wondering, if the pub was run by Joseph-married-to-Elizabeth and when he died his sons were too young to take it on so it passed to the care of Samuel (a cousin) who had enough doing with his farm so had his sister Mary step in as landlady, then when she married Samuel took it on.
Is there no will from Joseph anywhere?
Are there any estate records which list all the tenants and give two Josephs? that is the tricky bit isn't it? Two of them both innkeepers in the same tiny place!

[kathb]

Hi, Gardener, yes it is like one of those maths problems and I was never any good at maths.
You have however made me think at bit more outside the box.  I will send for the death cert of Joseph died 1840.  The parish records show he was aged 63 so born 1777 which fits as father of Samuel. 
I think your idea of the pub passing to Samuel is quite pertinent.  I can't find a Will for a Joseph death that fits.  I really need to find a marriage for a Joseph and Elizabeth which fits with the younger children at the Inn.  This might then lead me back to the parents of Joseph number 2 and how this connects with Joseph number 1.
I am at the Record Office in Chester tomorrow and will continue my search through the parish records to see what I can find.  Thanks for your time on this and giving me some more questions to pursue.  I will let everyone know if I find any more information.
Regards
Kathb