British Army widows 1857

[Jane Masri]

My 2xgreat grandfather was killed at Lucknow, India, during the Mutiny in October 1857.  He was a corporal in the 84th Foot which seems to have been based at the British garrison at Secunderabad near Hyderabad during these troubles.  He was married and had at least 2 small children at the time of his death.  The whole story of the siege & relief of the residency at Lucknow has captured my imagination so I've been reading some of the online personal stories & diaries which, in turn, has begged the question, what happened to the widows & children of those that lost their lives?  Plenty is written about the officers but what about the rank & file?
The regiment left India in 1859 so what happened in the intervening years?  Was she obliged to leave India shortly after her husbands death?  Did the regiment look after her & the children until they all left in 1859?
Can any historians answer these questions?

jane

[km1971]

Hi Jane

Most widows remarried other soldiers. It was either that or a free passage on a troopship back to the workhouse. Even when widow's pensions were introduced it was only for a maximum of seven years. And the portion for the children only lasted until boys were 14 and girls were 16.

The problem you face is that the army did not record details of wives and children until much later. It can also be quite tricky as often the children adopted the surname of the stepfather. If it was all done overseas it may have not left a trace. Bit of a black hole really. You could check Findmypast for her remarriage.

You could also try Fibris and there are a few other links on this thread on another forum - http://genchatfriends.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=5883&page=1

A good rule of thumb is that if you cannot trace either her or her children back in the UK, then she remarried or died overseas.

Ken

[Jane Masri]

Hi Ken,
Thanks for your reply.  From my readings it seems that the lives of Army wives & their families was pretty dismal back then.  Only a screened off section in the barrack room.  Having to wash laundry of their husband's comrades to earn a few pennies whilst hubby was away fighting battles.  So I would assume the life of a widow was even bleaker & marriage might give her & her children the means to survive!
I haven't found a re marriage for her using the usual sources nor a death.  The only clues I have is that her son (my great grandfather) enlists in the RN at Portsmouth in about 1866.  Her daughter does marry as evidenced by her obituary in 1934, Lahore.  So she, at least, either returns to England & then returns to India or just stays there 
I've just been searching the Times Digital for the actual date of return of the 84th & it seems that they left Calcutta on April 10 1859 & although expected to arrive in mid-July it didn't until 1/9/1859 at Gravesend, so I'll see if any of the family was onboard if I can find the manifest 
Thanks for the link I'll have a look now,

jane

[km1971]

Hi Jane

I don't think there would be a manifest for a RN transport ship. Also if she did return to the UK as a widow she would not have stayed on in India until the regiment returned two years after her husbands death. They would not have known at the time how long they would be there. Also, there would have been ships sailing to the UK every few weeks, so she would have been found a place on one of these.

Ken

[Jane Masri]

My thoughts exactly, Ken.
I'm still digging away at the internet to see what can be found, nothing so far but I have a growing list of search documents that they might be found on that I can look at on my next UK visit 
Thanks for your input & I'll broaden my search to include dates just after October 1857,

jane

[lucknow]

Hi Jane,
 I saw this thread and initially thought i may be able to help,but soon realised i cant clear this up for you.
However,i should mention that i had a relative in the 84th foot who was an original defender at the siege of Lucknow.
 My father asked me to research him and his medals and i've found out lots of interesting stuff.
Getting to the point though,i noticed that my relative appeared on a census (1871 i think!) as a chelsea pensioner living with his wife and also a stepson who was also a chelsea pensioner who had a different surname to my relative.
 Anyway,with the help of a member of another forum i discovered that a soldier  with the stepsons surname,also in the 84th foot was killed at the siege of Lucknow.I was told that it was common for widows to marry soldiers in the same regiment,so tried to find a marriage record and was delighted when i tracked it down.I managed to find  the marriage record that happened in India and confirmed all the relevant surnames that all corresponded with her former husband and hence found out her original surname.
 It really has been a remarkable journey for me and if you want to see how it unfolded have a look here.         

http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55455

I'm still trying to find out as much as i can about the role of the 84th foot in the siege and am planning a trip to Kew before to long.
 The 84th has a regimental museum at Rotherham which i have visited,but unfortunately they dont seem to have many records from this period?
 I hope this helps in some way ?

[Jane Masri]

Hi Lucknow,
Thanks for your reply.  The weird thing is that I've just returned from the UK spending many days at Kew researching the 84th & my ancestor  so I feel quite an expert 
Off the top of my head as I'm not at my own computer, I found my 2xgreat grandfather in many of the muster & paylists so could track him without too much difficulty.  He had originally joined the 67th Foot in Galway, Ireland in 1840.  Their muster books gave a place of birth & age at enlistment, which was a great find!  Along with a whole bunch of other men, my 2xgreat grandfather volunteered to join the 84th foot in April 1842.
I found from the campaign medal list that he had been with Sir Henry Havelock's force that 'relieved' Lucknow for the first time on September 25 1857.  The Defence of Lucknow clasp aparently is quite a rare medal to find these days.
What a pity you didn't write this two weeks ago as I could have looked-up your relative as I was doing mine!  Having said that, I can at least give you the TNA references for the 84th information.  I can also send to you some digital images I took of a book from the NA library which details the movements of the 84th.
I had also been in touch with the Regimental Museum with no luck for anything of the dates I needed.  I also phoned Rotherham Local Studies Centre to check if they had anything but they didn't so I think I have exhausted all possible existing documents for the 84th.
Trawling the regimental books for a few years after 1857 I did find reference to monies etc given to his widow in 1859 so I know she was still around.
I still can't get clarification as to whether wives & children travelled with the regiment during the mutiny.  Do you have any knowledge of this?

Jane

[lucknow]

Hi Jane,
 Well done with your successful research at Kew.I've yet to make the trip and to be honest it seems a bit daunting,so to hear from someone who has already been is a great help.Thanks for your offer to look stuff up also.
 I plan to check the muster rolls and paylists so your TNA references would be very usefull.
With regards to wives and children traveling with the regiment during the mutiny,i can only give my opinion based on what i know about the movements of the regiment leading up to the siege.
 The role of the 84th was quite unusual during the mutiny due to the fact the regiment was split up into different detachments,some of which were massacred at Cawnpore,another group of around 50 were sent to lucknow under Major David O'brien and became involved as original defenders of lucknow,and the main body of the regiment took part in the first relief of Lucknow.
 I'm really not sure about wives and children traveling with the regiment during the mutiny.I've never heard any mention of it in any reports of the regiments movements? I do know that women and children were present at the siege of
Lucknow,but they were probably residents of the town.
 I have some copied pages from a book about the 84th which i'll have another look through and let you know if there is any mention.
 I would be interested to know myself,as my relative married a widower of a man also from the 84th present as an original defender,and would love to know if she was present throughout the siege.
 I would love to see the images you took from the book detailing movements of the 84th.
Can you tell me if the muster rolls are microfilm or actual documents?I was told your not allowed tripods for cameras at Kew so i wonder how you found taking digital images?
 My email is jonny.bradford  and thats at  yahoo.com
I dont suppose you have found any pictures of any men of the 84th ? Highly unlikely i know ! Do you know what happened to your relatives medal?
Regards Jonathan     

[Jane Masri]

Hi Jonathan,
Since writing to you last I found an excellent book online written by an officer who was with Henry Havelock's force.  It's a series of letters written by him to his wife detailing the day-to-day movements of the force.
I have to read it again & take notes but there were at least two more small detachments of the 84th that came up to reinforce Havelock's force.  It seems that he wanted the 84th to be the first to enter the Residency to relieve their comrades!
From this book I've deduced that the families of the soldiers were back in Calcutta.
The Muster rolls are original documents mostly in the form of bound books.  There was only one package that I looked at which were loose papers tied up with tape each bundle marked with the regiment number.  I did note that some of these were out of order as I found some 84th papers in with the 86th!
For the larger cameras they have stands for taking photo's that you clamp the camera in.  I just used my little digital camera & I got good images.  Others were also using small digital cameras so they work just fine! (my camera has a text setting & you need to disable the flash)
No, no pictures of the 84th.  No idea what happened to the medal.  It was probably passed on to his widow then to his children.  I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't sold 

I'll get in contact with you regarding the books via your email address. Not sure if that will be today as I'm working on something for someone else & I want to finish that.
So nice to exchange ideas with someone who has an interest in the 84th.  Who knows, maybe our relatives knew each other 

Jane