Marriage Record for Bermondsey

[Eyesee]

Is this your Robert's baptism

http://www.rootschat.com/links/07md/

Ian C

[jemwinder]

THank you very much for the attached link, I think it is very likely to be my Robert WInder, as ive not found any other record of Robert Winder in Chatham,  If only I could find the marraige of Robert Winder to Elizabeth Nichols in bermondsey and it stating his father was JOhn Winder Shipwrite then I would be even more confident of a match

Again thank you very much in taking the time to share the information with me,

Regards

Jeremy Winder

[Valda]

Hi

Since their eldest known child Robert was born 13th February 1838 and civil registration began 1st July 1837 unless they married after his conception (in which case you would expect to find the marriage indexed on the GRO index) then the marriage is likely to have taken place before civil registration, in which case no father's names will be given.

If this is the death registration of Robert Winder (his son Frederick's marriage of 1866 states he was deceased)

Deaths Jun 1864 
Winder  Robert     Islington  1b 186

and he was living in the Islington area in 1861 that might account for the difficulty in finding him and his family on that census as part of Islington is missing from that census  - RG9/145 part of Islington East. He was in St Sepulchre without his family on the 1841 census - not born Middlesex, which just leaves the evidence of the 1851 census that he was born in Chatham circa 1814.


John in Woolwich on the censuses and later Plumstead was a shipwright

Deaths Sep 1875   WINDER  John  78  Woolwich  1d 611

WINDER, John   
Christening Date:27 May 1798 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

WINDER, Robert Bowies   
Christening Date:27 May 1798 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

WINDER, Caroline   
Birth Date:8 Aug 1800   
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

WINDER, Thomas   
Birth Date:26 Feb 1802   
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816   Chatham, Kent BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

WINDER, Charles   
Birth Date:31 Mar 1806   
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

WINDER, William   
Birth Date:30 Nov 1808   
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

WINDER, Robert   
Christening Date:2 Oct 1814 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

Eliza could be the daughter of son John - two further baptisms for  a John and Sarah Winder in 1825 and 1830 (there are often gaps in Bishop Transcripts)
WINDER, Eliza   
Christening Date:14 Jun 1818   Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah

Have you checked to see whether John Winder shipwright of Chatham left a will (proved in Kent)?


Regards

Valda

[jemwinder]

Hi Valda

I will look at a2a to see if there is a will,

also you stated Robert "his son Frederick's marriage of 1866 states he was deceased" I dont have a record of Frederick Marrying in 1866 only 1881 to Rosina Hobbs

Many thanks for the additional children of John and Sarah.

I cant find John and Sarah on any of the Census so assume they may have died before 1841, Have found the fist son in 1841 Woolwich as you stated a Shipwright) but thats the only other one apart from my Robert.

regards

Jeremy

[Valda]

Hi


As far as I know Kent Record Office has not placed an index of the wills it holds online (either on A2A or any other website).

There is a private index to West Kent wills

http://www.davideastkent.canterhill.co.uk/wkpi1.htm

12th June 1881
Holy Trinity, Tottenham 
Frederick Winder Full Age Bachelor Butcher Tottenham Robert Winder Butcher
Rosina Regatha Hobbs Full Age Spinster Tottenham Joseph Hobbs Cabinet maker
Marriage by banns, both signed
Witnesses Harry Dingley (his mark) and Patience Dingley

9th January 1866
Christ Church Southwark
Frederick Winder 21 Bachelor Butcher 25 Brunswick Street Robert Winder Dead
Ann Williams 19 Spinster 56 Brunswick Street James Williams Draper
marriage by banns, both signed (there is very little in common with the two Frederick signatures on the marriages)
Witnesses John Atcheler and Rosetta Sarah Britton her mark

Some adjustment of age by Frederick on his marriage to Rosina perhaps to accomodate the difference in age
1881 census 31 birth year circa 1850
1891 census 32 birth year circa 1859
1901 census 49 birth year circa 1852


1871 census RG10 420 folio 93
11 Westmorland Buildings St Botolph Aldersgate without City of London
James Williams 73 Head Married Cordwainer Colchester Essex
Mary Williams 66 Wife Married Pulborough Sussex
Ann Winder 22 Daughter Married Machinist St Batholomew City of London
Ann Winder 4 Granddaughter Clerkenwell Middlesex
Frederick Winder 3 Grandson Holloway Middlesex
Martha Williams 45 Daughter Unmarried Milliner St Andrews? City of London
Frances Williams 41 Daughter Unmarried Milliner St Andrews? City of London

as you already know Frederick senior was in prison in 1871.

Ann Winder junior was with her grandparents on the 1881 census at 34 Frome Street Islington

There is this confusing 1881 census entry - if its the same Frederick junior, John could be his uncle but not his brother

RG11 238 folio 111
7 Albert Terrace York Road Islington
John Winder 28 Head Unmarried Butcher Islington Middlesex
Frederick Winder 14 Brother Unmarried Islington Middlesex

10th July 1893 St Luke West Holloway Islington
Fredrick Winder 25 Porter 2 Fakenham Villas Frederick Winder Butcher
Emily Davies 22 Spinster 2 Fakenham Villas Edward James Davies Decorator
both signed, marriage by banns
Witnesses Edward James Davies and Kate Branson?

Of Robert's siblings
There was a Charles Winder a coachproprietor ages 34 in Chatham on the 1841 census.

Marriages Jun 1842 
WINDER  Charles    Medway  5 419

Deaths Dec 1860 Winder  Charles     Medway  2a 208


There was also a William Winder and wife Agnes who had a son baptised in Chatham in 1837 and moved to Totnes - 1841 and 1851 censuses where Agnes was born. Wife Agnes on the 1851 census gave her age as 38 but William on the 1851 and 1861 censuses in Dorchester gives his age as 32 and 40 which is a trifle young for a son born  in at least in 1808. William was a seller of patent medicines.


Regards

Valda

[jemwinder]

HI Valda,

thanks again very much for your help, you stated

10th July 1893 St Luke West Holloway Islington
Fredrick Winder 25 Porter 2 Fakenham Villas Frederick Winder Butcher
Emily Davies 22 Spinster 2 Fakenham Villas Edward James Davies Decorator
both signed, marriage by banns
Witnesses Edward James Davies and Kate Branson


I have looked at my Frederick and Rosina in 1891 and they also live at 2 Fakenham Villas, so this Frederick aged 25 (born about 1868) must be family if not his son.

So i guess i need to find if records exist for Divorce in the 1870s, as he Married Rosina in 1881, or if Ann Winder (nee Williams Died)

Regards

Jeremy

P.S Ive ordered the CD for Kentish Wills from that site, you gave me.

[Valda]

Hi

If he had divorced his second marriage certificate should state that. Divorce before the end of the First World War was a costly business since there was no legal aid until then. It was therefore beyond the means of most ordinary working class people. There is no Frederick Winder in The National Archives online divorce index.

Regards

Valda

[jemwinder]

Hi Valda

Funny enough i was just reading the same at the familyhistory uk website, that was an eye opener, Never realised that divorce was such as hard thing to do until fairly recently it appears.

So if he did not get divorced i would have expected a death of Ann winder, but i cant see one on FREEBMD or Ancestry

Also With regards to there possible son, it does seem strange to me that Frederick and Ann had a son called Frederick, he then remarries and has another Frederick Christopher in 1882, even while his other son is still around!    So this does make me think that it may not be his son, but i cant think for the life of my what other connection he could be! 

As i have no other fredericks in my famliy

The hunt contunies!

Thanks

Jeremy

[Valda]

Hi

Birth registration

Births Mar 1868
Winder  Frederick     Islington  1b 224

and you already have the marriage specifying his father was Frederick and a butcher and he married from his father's home. You also have him on the 1871 census with his mother's family.
Sometimes a second wife equally wants her son named for his father.

Likely death registration for Ann

Deaths Dec 1880   
Winders  Ann  31  Shoreditch  1c 108


Regards

Valda