Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana

[Wiggy]

Leo,

if only the origins of Catharine Christina McNally were a well documented as those of the Langdale family!!!   Life would be so much easier - but think of the people we'd have missed meeting on rootschat - the silver lining to the cloud!!

Wiggy

[Wiggy]

Ref post 251

Hi  Wivenhoe

I have Thomas Jnr's death certificate, 1904, but unfortunately it doesn't give parents names!  The certificate doesn't give much information at all - not parents, not wife, not children - in fact nothing helpful at all at all. 
 Bit late to be replying to you - but been reading back to see what I can pick up which I may have missed.   We have found that getting the gov't record of death from the indexes is just a helpful as the actual certificate for early Tasmanian records - the certificates didn't start having much on them until after 1914 in Tassie - odd isn't it - you'd have thought they'd be right up there with the leaders.   
 (If you want to know things from marriage and death certificates, make sure your family is in Victoria!! )

Also ref 275
 - we've been visiting the cemetery where Thomas Jnr and wife and children and grandchildren, great grandchildren etc etc are buried - lots of Ransoms there.  Our story is that Millbrook was hived off from Killymoon - but we could be wrong on that.   Certainly Thomas lived there for a while.   Thomas Snr had quite a number of land grants and inns so there was a bit of property around, and all left to Thomas via Catharine, who held it is trust during her life time.    Ann is buried elsewhere with Francis V St we believe - she and Francis both died in Launceston - so likely to be nearer there maybe.

Wiggy

[majm]

Hi there,

This may be a red herring, if so, Sorry, BUT
Has any consideration been given to an Ann Thomas?

There's an index reference on the NSW Col Sec's papers (1788-1825)  July 1820 Petition of Robert Cooper on behalf of son of Ann Thomas, to the Male Orphan Institution, referred to Magistrate or Chaplain (Reel 6040; 4/400 p.21)

Perhaps that petition relates perhaps to the Robert Cooper in VDL ... perhaps the same chap who received a CP in VDL in July 1815 and/or ....

Perhaps the chap who "won" a civil court case in 1825 as reported in HT Gazette of Friday 18 March 1825
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1090611?searchTerm=%22robert+cooper%22

Still wondering who was the "prying eyes" or the impediment to marriage 

Cheers, 

JM
 

[Wiggy]

Happy Christmas all.

Hi JM - no, not until now have we considered Ann Thomas - that is a thought worth mulling over.  Thank you. 

Have read over the court case - don't know if it relates or not - I gather it took place in Sydney.

It seems a bit of a long shot - but one never knows what will pay dividends, so worth a look.

Cheers,

Wiggy

[majm]

Hi there,

Yes, it was a trial in Sydney, a civil trial, with a civil jury! It would be among the first of the civil trials by jury that the Crown lost.  Most likely it was the verdict of the jury that meant it was important for settlers in both VDL and NSW.

Re Ann Thomas,

I've just realised I should have posted this reference perhaps it explains itself... 

COOPER, Robert. Of Parramatta
 1820 Jul 12, Oct 11 its a Petition on behalf of son of Ann Thomas, to Male Orphan Institution, referred to Magistrate or Chaplain (Reel 6040; 4/400 pp.21-2)
1821 Jan 10
 The child reported to have a father-in-law and mother alive and not object for Male Orphan Institution (Reel 6040; 4/400 p.24)

I'm fairly certain that the expression "father in law" was not as strictly meant in those times as say it would today.  It could indicate a step relationship or, perhaps an informal adoption...   The child was not eligible for the orphanage, (or so Robert Cooper seems to have claimed) so where did that child grow up, and with whom.... his mother and father in law perhaps.. I have YET to find Ann Thomas AFTER 1820 ....  and err.... what year do we find CCMcN's name first appearing ... err AFTER 1820 , yes we have Thomas Ransom with a WIFE earlier, but NOT with a name...

Could the son be the one registered in 1817, or the one in 1815... not sure, but those ladschristenings are at NSW BDM online, and no father's name appears in that index...

Its just a thought, and could be a red herring, but ... there's also  convict, Ann Thomas or Smallman who was in VDL last noted on the 1822 list, (Sorrell's list).  She arrived VDL on that 1814 voyage of the Kangaroo.... 

So was CCmcN  known to AT or perhaps previously known as AT or perhaps tis just a red herring.  Not sure, but I thought I should let you know where I was at re looking for C N of the branded cattle fame !
Cheers,  JM   EDITING TO ADD, AND I SEEM TO REMEMBER THAT CATHARINE WAS NOT FOUND IN 1822 MUSTER ....

[regross]

well researched JM.  Certainly worth pursuing.

Does Ann Thomas show up on the 1822 muster

Robyn

[majm]

Hi all,

I think that Ann Thomas may be on the 1822 list...  but perhaps under surname SMALLMAN ... not sure... see these index references off the Col Sec papers...   I have not got to Sydney yet to check what's on the reels... and could be months before I can get there.  notice the 1822 reference to SORRELL's list and also the 1814 request to marry (a possible impediment  ) and the Kangaroo trip to the Derwent... what was ship that took Thomas Ransom to VDL ... and no application made for Cert of Freedom 

SMALLMAN, Ann (Per "Canada", 1810) see THOMAS, Ann

SMALLMAN, Ann. Per "Lord Wellington", 1820
1820 Aug 22 On list of female convicts embarked on "Princess Charlotte" for the public service in Van Diemen's Land (Reel 6007; 4/3502 p.217)
and
THOMAS, Ann
1820 Jul Petition of Robert Cooper on behalf of son of Ann Thomas, to the Male Orphan Institution, referred to Magistrate or Chaplain (Reel 6040; 4/400 p.21)
and
THOMAS, Ann or SMALLMAN. Per "Canada", 1810
1812 Aug 26 Re permission to marry John Williams at Hawkesbury (Reel 6002; 4/3491 p.320)
1814 Aug 16To be conveyed to the Derwent per "Kangaroo" (Reel 6004; 4/3493 p.244)
1814 Aug 16On list of convicts embarked on board the "Kangaroo" for Hobart (Reel 6004; 4/3493 p.250)
1822 Aug 2
 Allowed to come from Hobart per "Emerald" to join the family of Mrs Thornton as a servant. Re her failure to apply for a certificate of freedom (Reel 6009; 4/3506 p.118)
1822 Sep 18 On list of convicts in Van Diemen's Land, as called for by Lieutenant Governor Sorell (Reel 6009; 4/3506 p.297)

Cheers JM
 


 

[majm]

Hi All,

I've been re-reading MOI notes, and the Ann Thomas on the Canada in 1810 was sentenced to Life... wait for it, the trial was in Glamorgan... in March 1809... so tried in WALES and sent to New South Wales... then onto VDL several years later...

From the INDEX of Col Secretary's papers, I suspect there's TWO lasses carrying convictions, and who were named Ann Thomas, but without access to the reels, its still a "cloudy" issue ...

Cheers,

JM

Adding, that's as far as I have progressed with that searchings on Ann Thomas and/or Smallman v CCMcN (or C N for short !)

[Wiggy]

Hi All,      Happy New Year!

Been a long time . . .

Considering ALL that has gone before I hardly like to admit this - after ALL THIS TIME!  I was reading and re-reading all the info that has been gathered for my 'thesis' on Thomas 2 when what should I re-read about Thomas 1, but a letter written by him, in October 1824, to Lieut. Gov. Arthur re the lack of licence renewal - " . . .I further beg leave to state to your Honour, that the obstacle which has been the occasion of the licences being suspended (lack of marriage) has existed nearly 11 years and in consequence of it being  out of my power to remedy I have employed workmen and am preparing . . ."[/color]
Now folks - what we are concentrating on here is, not whose fault it was about being unable to remedy the fact, - we are concentrating on the 11 years!.

This has really put the cat among the pigeons because it takes the date back to early 1814 for Catharine Christina to pal up with Thomas.  - Say early 1814 when Kangaroo arrived in Sydney from N.I.

I've been looking for the record of John McNally birth in Sydney in 1811 - you know the one born to Catharine and John McNally and it doesn't say whether his father, John, was a convict.   So my new scenario is that Catharine slipped away from John and came south with Thomas on the Kangaroo in 1814 - (though she must have stowed away because that scene has been pretty closely investigated by one and all.  )  This same John Jnr ends up in the Sydney muster in 1822 you may remember with Ann Clemens -

How about if he was in Sydney all the time and Catharine (who was actually known as Christina from all I have gleaned - or Mrs Ransom  ) left him there??   How about if the John McNally who came south with John Cummings was a different John McNally - the convict John per Boddingtons.   There were several John McNallys we've discovered haven't we!

Just thought I throw a little mud into the already very cloudy waters.

Not expecting miracles doncha know but . . .  Why didn't this bit of info register before ? - I don't know!!

Wiggy