Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana

[majm]

Hi All,

Yes, yesterday was a long day !  Some suggestions follow:

a) have we considered that perhaps Catharine Mc Nally was born free, at Norfolk Island in those several years before that first settlement was removed to VDL ?  Thus perhaps at least one of her parents was transported from PJ to NI ....
     This would account for NO immigration records getting her to the penal colonies from the UK.... and also for not finding her christening records (we've been looking in the WRONG place  .... and for her surname remaining McNally from birth  .... 
     I don't know if that explains the impediment, but perhaps she was born circa 1790 to a convict mum and a military chap stationed at NI.... 
     Perhaps when Thomas Ransom was involved in organising the removal of the settlement from NI to VDL Catharine's papers were not in order and Thomas realised this but would not leave a (by then) 14 year old "humble" lass on the Island with the few remaining men to harvet the coffee crop etc .... 
  WITHOUT proper papers in VDL how could she attend a muster and prove she was NOT a convict 

I think there's a headstone on NI dating from that first settlement that has deteriorated to the extent that only the initials can be found...  C H N ....  perhaps a real clue there...

     Perhaps the impediment was simply relating to Catharine's lack of a piece of paper relating to her birth, and by Thomas' will and his 1829 death, she then had a legal piece of paper which gave her name as Catharine McNally...
     that piece of paper (or the proved probate with the court stamp on it) may well have been sufficient to permit the Rev to proceed and permit her to then marry ....

And it would thus be logical to presume that back in the previous decade and at Hobart, that Thomas Ransom was the father of both Ann and Thomas Ransom... and of course that Catharine McNally was their mother....

b) If born and raised on NI, then she would have attended the rudimentary school there, and learnt reading and writing .... hoping Wiggy's baptismal record has Catharine's writing on it...

c) Have we checked carefully all the possible muster records for the surnames starting with N for possible sightings of that C N after all that stray steer was found in 1829

Cheers, I have driven several hundred kms this morning, and will be making return journey to my OH shortly....

I was sort of hoping that Catharine would have been "found"... 

JM

[davclem]

JM - I did pay special attention to NorfolkIsland when this saga started, but could find nothing. Irene Schaffer has confirmed that she also could find nothing relating to Catherine  on Norfolk.It is the evident place to look as Thomas was the last off in 1814,(and there are  strong family connections with Thomas 1820 marrying Sarah Stanfield ) . Any woman or girl on Norfolk seems accounted for . Thomas and others from NI arrived in Hobart late 1814 on the Kangaroo, on the second try to get there by Lieut Jeffries! I have done my best to check every Catharine/Catherine/Cathrina/Katherine/Christiana etc in VDL since 1810, including those that arrived on Calcutta 1803, also McNalty/Macanaly/mcanley/nallly, Neale/etc, with (obviuosly ) no success.
 
What sticks out is that Catharine is steadfast in her use of the  name, CCMc, in baptising Thomas,named in old Thomas will, and in marrying Fred,which suggests a legitimate entitlement to it- by birth or marriage- or a determined hiding of her original identity.

 So far the only way we have got a Catherine McNally on the island is via the 1811 birth record and the 1816 employment notice , where the link is the name Catharine (once) and John Mcnally (twice), and a link of McNally to Cummings via the abscondment notice. If Catherine was only the common law wife of McNally there would have been no legal impediment to her marrying Thomas 1741, and she would presumably have been pleased to get rid of the name- so why did she marry Stieglitz as a spinster under the name McNally-

so, (1)I think the impediment was Thomas-it ceased when he died- so  he held his vows to Elizabeth (Durrell?) to be binding? There was no female connection to Thomas on Norfolk.
 (2)McNally was either a maiden or her mothers name,and we just have not yet found her arrival on the island  about 1818-20, (or) she has hidden her real name by taking on the identity of a Catharine  Christina NcNally- but that must have been in a very narrow window of opportunity when arriving in VDL, a name switch before she was known as anybody else. And that means we can't even be certain of the name Catharine- we could perhaps focus on all CMs? Charlotte, Claribel, whatever, but ....

David

[davclem]

we need to look for a woman who arrived in VDL between Jan 1 -October 19 1819 aged 33-45, either under the name McNally or variation, or another name which she changed to McNally during the year . And that brings us back to Wiggy's favourite Barbara Cartland scenario that she was the companion of Thomas Amos who left her behind!  DAVID

[majm]

   Just Moi Opinion, 
    

As with the last thread, and now this thread...  I try to get to the primary records or images of these...  I try not to rely on reference books but on the sources cited in those books...  I also try to get to the contempory records of the period, not just the ones cited in those books...  I try to cite references myself....... I try to be positive in my thoughts and actions, and share the knowledge I have, particularly about the penal colonial era .... I simply try to help fellow RChatters...

I don't see that I can help further on this thread... Of course I shall make time to follow it, but .....  I am of the view that confining the search for her arrival in VDL to a period of less than twelve months (1 Jan - 19 Oct, 1819) is too restrictive and has been undertaken by several of us here at RChat several times ... and by others, including perhaps professional researchers at earlier times and with the same outcome....  

Gentle reminder though that the baptismal record may have been submitted to TAO in recent times and the information on it may not be based on an inspection of the Parish records showing baptisms before and after, all recorded in date order... Also, a gentle reminder that of course, CCMc was NOT the initials on the steer belonging to Mrs Ransom, (noting that the owner of the adjoining property upon which her cattle had strayed, believed Mrs Ransom was "C N") errrrr.... those initials .... C N .... errrrrrr  I believe I have previously offered the suggestion that NALLY, Catharine, Mc. may be how her name may have been recorded in VDL prior to her marriage to Frederick... 
  "  C N  "
Catharine was a real person, who lived and breathed VDL air...  her descendants include Wiggy...  .... to my way of thinking, the search for this VDL lass ought to cover a period from as early as say 1780 (her possible parents' possible marriage may date from about then) up to her own 1830 marriage to Frederick.... she deserves NOTHING LESS...

Errrrrrrrr, afterall, the subject line that Wiggy uses on this thread is
Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana  
     

Sorry, but its Just Moi Opinion that I cannot help further, so Cheers, (and the ladies threw flowers for the bushranger   )
Good Searchings,

JM

[regross]

Dave:
LiKe JM has said: Why restrict it to then. It is always possible that she arrived AFTER the  October muster  and before the November birth which is I think the earliest official use of Catharine Christiana McNally that has been found.

Yes we have a Catherine  married to John MCNally and having children but so far this lady has no connection the name of Christiana.

Wehave made assumptions that the female with Thomas Ransome prior to this date is Catharine McNally BUT we have no PROOF.

Not possible for her to a granddaughter of Thomas's arrived from England heavily pregnant?  NO No No too much imagination.

regards

Robyn

[Wiggy]

Hi all,     

1)  Please, don't blame David for my flights of fancy  - I do have them and they are not verified - but 'many a true word is spoken in jest'  (goodness knows who I will attribute that quote to!)   I have these wild scenarios and throw them out to be disproved - not the correct way to do things, but this is not an easy find/search.  and hopefully everyone recognises them for what they are - Wiggy's fantasies!

2)  I know that David has done thorough searches for Catharine both in VDL, N.I. P.J and back in Britain, and that he goes for source material whenever possible - not an raw researcher - unlike me for example.   (No I know you don't need defending David - just thought I'd mention the matter.)

3) I also know, from the help I've received from you folk, that you are experienced and correct researchers who go for the original sources when possible.   For that I thank you most sincerely.   If you have done all you can JM  - then thanks for you time with the thread - it is greatly appreciated.

Maybe we all need to take time out to get a longer view of things - so much searching and so much food for thought been thrown into the ring - it all needs careful analysis - by me anyway - I can't take it all in so quickly.

 I have taken note of what you have told me, and the original sources you think I may be able to chase up and have today been in contact with the Diocese of Tasmania re originals of the various certificates I am seeking - so will be chasing those when we get to Hobart next month.

Going back to ruminate quietly again.     

Wiggy         

[davclem]

Robyn,

Actually Catherine as a daughter of Thomas WAS an early thought, which would have again made her a married or a defacto McNally, but the IGI showed only 5 Catharine Ransom marriages  1800-1820 , all in New York and none to a McNally, so that lapsed without further investigation. Had she not been married,  then she would have been Catharine Ransom as mother on Thomas's birth. If she was married then Mr McNally would also have  moved   in with Thomas, and also appeared in the Muster. If she had dumped Mr McNally( so we are back to John Mcnally,or even James Macanally)then presumably she would have reverted to her maiden name of Ransom when baptising Thomas. From whichever way you look at it, it is not lack of imagination which seems to rule out that idea, which would have been so simple! and why would she call herself Mrs Ransom, and not Miss Ransom, nobody worried about single mothers in early VDL!   David

[davclem]

If you go to  eHeritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au  and enter Christina Stieglitz  you can see Catharine's tomb and headstone. The image actually doesn't show the headstone in full, it is in the foreground at an angle and bisected, but you get the feel of the place.  David

[davclem]

1 Catherine Wood was an "aged woman" on Wednesday 3rd February 1819 when her husband, Matthew Wood, a
settler much advanced in years, was "horribly murdered in his residence in New Norfolk.

2 Saturday 15 May 1819, Thomas on list of subscribers to the Auxiliary Branch Bible Society VDL, and he stumped up a bit more than most- there is a theme of church and religious leaning running through the story of Thomas and Catharine.He paid up for his pew in St Davids, Catharine donated to the Wesleyans, both  were highly regarded etc. Makes me long for her to be Miss Brown, but that could only be if she became McNally through marriage, and we've done that . Have roamed and trawled for methodist missionaries in NSW and VDL but no link yet.
3 No advertisements found in 1819 for a comely wench to operate the bar of the Joiner's Arms

David