Did they beam in from outer space?

[sarenid]

I am trying to trace William Matthews b 1851 Pontypool according to the census of 1901.  In this census he is living with wife Mary b 1851 Llantrisant Glamorgan daughter Edith A Baverstock b 1875 Abergavenny son-in-law Edward Baverstock and grandson Phillip Thomas Baverstock.  I figured that the information on the census would make it a singe to go further back but this has not been the case.  I have searched the censuses back to 1851 and although I have found possibilities for William Mary and Edith A I cannot find one which links them all. 

I got hold of the marriage certificate thinking maybe that would have more information but other than confirming a date of 1875 for Edith Ann birth, which is also that given in the 1911 census for the Baverstock family, the only extra information is the middle name of George for William Matthews.

I also got the birth certificate for an Edith Ann Matthews b1878 Abergavenny (not many edith Matthews) but this lists her father as George Matthews and Mother as Mary nee Thomas.  This does tally with censuses of 1881 and 1891 for a family in the area.

Has anyone any ideas as to how I can verify whether this family is the same given the different names and dates of birth?  Incidentally Edith A Baverstock died 1913 and her age at death makes the year of birth 1878.  Help please.
sarenid

[PaulineJ]

Ir would be helpful if you did list these census households with all Info.
Otherwise we'll be wasting time and effort replication what you already have.

Pauline

[Arranroots]

Hi Sarenid

As you say, not many to choose from!

There are a lot of coincidences with the George and Mary family, so I would want to rule them out first.

What does the Marriage cert say about witnesses, father's occupation etc?

As Pauline mentions, the census details are helpful to see which ones you've chosen!

Kind regards, Arranroots 

[sarenid]

There are 2 concerning George and Mary:
1881 George Matthews b1851 Goytre Monmouth occupation:  Farmer 98 Acres Res: Abergavenny
          Mary Matthews   B 1850 Glamorgan
          Edith Matthews B 1879 Abergavenny
1891 George W Matthews b1851 Goytrey Monmouth Occupation: labourer Res: Trevethin
         Mary Matthews b1849    Goytrey Monmouth
         Edith A Matthews b1879 Abergavenny
1901 William Matthews b1851 Pontypool Monmouth Occupation Pit foreman below Res: Senghenydd
         Mary Matthews b 1851 Llantrissant Glamorgan
         Edith A Baverstock b 1875 Abergavenny
Earlier censuses for possibles are:
1851 Henry Matthews b1823 Llanbaddock  Farmer 23 acres res: Goytrey
         Sarah Matthews b1826 Panteague
          William Matthews b1850 Goytrey
1871 Henry Matthews b1816 Llanbaddock Farmer 40 acres res: Mamhilad
         Sarah Matthews b 1826 Panteg
         George Matthews b 1851  Goytrey Also  Emily 1657 Henry 1865 Hezekiah 1867
1851 Thomas Matthews b 1824 Llanover Miner Res: Trevethin
          Mary Matthews b1826 Trevethin
          William Matthews b1851 Trevethin
1871 Thomas Matthews b 1823 Llanover Miner Res Garndiffaith
          Mary matthews b 1825 Trevethin
           William Matthews b 1851 Trevethin Miner

Marriage certificate of Edith ann Matthews list father as William George Matthews Foreman Labourer?
Birth certificate Edith Ann Matthews 1878 lists father as George Matthews Railway Breaksman
Mother as Mary Thomas.  found a index for marriage of George William Matthews 1871 in Abergavenny with Mary Thomas as one of two possible spouses.  Many thanks for helping look into this.
sarenid

[Arranroots]

Thanks for all that - sorry to be a pain, but can you tell us about the witnesses for the marriage please?  Where and when were they married too?

Also the place of birth on the cert for Edith - it might match one of the census addresses.

On the face of it, George doesn't see like William but there's a shortage of volunteers for the job ...

 

[sarenid]

Thanks for the help.
The Witnesses to the marriage are Henry G Barnes (I think) and George Jones.  It took place in the registry off in the district of Pontypridd Edith Ann Matthews and family were already living in Senghenydd (no exact address given)  but the address given on the census of 1901 is the same address in Senghenydd for the Baverstock family minus the Matthews in 1911 6 Station Road.  If Edith Matthews had been born in 1878 then she would have been just 18 literally by 1 day.  The birth certifcate gives her date of birth as 30 aug 1878.   The date of the marriage is 31 aug 1896 is this just coincidence? 

The address on the birth certificate is 70 Lower Monk Street Abergavenny.  I know that doesn't match the possible address of George Matthews in 1881 but obviously they could have moved.  I have to admit to not checking as yet the address against a census return.  Must give that a try.  best wishes Sarenid.

[sarenid]

I think I may have solved the birth date mystery.  Edith Ann Mathews gave birth to my grandfather on 8 december 1896 so she would have been around 6 months pregnant in August 1896. Given the dates it appears likely they waited until the day after her 18th birthday to get married.  Isn't it also true you had to have some form of special licence if the bride was under 21?  In which case perhaps they claimed she was 21 in order to avoid the complications.  She was living in Senghenydd so one would have thought she would get married there rather than going to Pontypridd.  It would appear they kept up the pretence through 2 censuses and it was only on her death in 1913 where they correctly recorded her age as 35 giving her a birth year of 1878 that the truth came out.  Does this seem reasonable?  Sarenid

[Arranroots]

Hi again

Yes, it does, although 21 was the legal age of majority so 18 wouldn't make any difference really. 

I had another look last night and couldn't satisfy myself that I was looking at the right people!  The 1861 census for this area is badly damaged, with some parts missing but that doesn't explain all the omissions.

I did wonder whether there was a second marriage in there somewhere ...

Confusing and probably needs a through look, which I haven't yet had time for.

A 

Edit: In Lower Monk St in 1881 is an Ann MORGAN, an unmarried grocer of 54 and her niece Edith JONES aged 8 and born Abergavenny.  Just those two!  Sadly no number for the house!

 Note that one of the witnesses was a JONES - but don't hold your breath for my proving a connection!

[sarenid]

Hi
Have looked into all William Matthews born around 1851 in monmouthshire in C1851 and this is the result:
C1851 William & Ann Matthews with William age 6m Tredegar RD Abergavenny
C1861 Son living with parents Scholar
C1871 Son living with parents Puddler
C1891 Lodger  Assistant Roller Iron works
C1901 Living with brother David and family Steel Worker

C1851 Thomas & Mary Matthews with William age 2m Trevethin RD Pontypool
C1871 living with parents garndiffaith Coal miner
C1881 Living with wife Sarah ann Barnsley Coal miner
C1891 Living with wife Sarah ann Barnsley Coal miner
C1901 Living with wife Sarah Ann Barnsley Coal miner

C1851 William & Elizabeth Mathews with William age 6 m St Mellons RD Cardiff
C1861 Living with parents Scholar
C1871 living with parents Labourer
C1881 living with Harriet General Labourer
C1891 living with Harriet Traffic Foreman
C1901 Head living with Harriet railway signalman


C1851 Henry & Sarah Matthews with William age 6 m Goytrey RD Pontypool
Birth index July Sept 1850 vol:26 p:176 Pontypool (George William Matthews)
C1871 Living with Parents Mamilhad Farmer's son (George)
Marriage index July - Sept 1871 Marriage Mary Thomas George William Mathews
C1881 Living with Mary and Edith llantillo pertholey farmer 98 acres (George)
C1891 living with Mary and Edith A Trevethin Labourer (George W Matthews)

C1901 living with Mary Edith Ann Edward Phillip Thomas Senghenydd Miner ?

C1851 William & Elizabeth Matthews with William (twin Ann Matthews) Age 1 m Lanorechva RD Pontypool
C1861 Ann is present but not william. In fact youngest son aged 1 called william so William born 1851 probably died.

C1851 John & Ann Matthews with William age 1 Risca RD Newport
C1861 Living with parents age 13 1848
C1871 possibibly living with wife Theresa although year of birth now 1845/6
Having difficulty following this William further but he doesn't seem particularly likely anyway, wrong place of birth and age is on old side.
The more I look into it the more likely George/William Matthews of Goytrey seems as the father of Edith Ann Baverstock nee Matthews.

What do you think? Sara