Author Topic: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.  (Read 110964 times)

Offline corisande

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #72 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 16:09 BST (UK) »
Quote
he must have known what his fate would be

That is very true, and comes out time and time again with the British agents shot by the IRA.  That to me is quite incredible that they carried on knowing that they were almost certain to die. But the IRA knew that they too would die if they were caught.

With what I am doing with my research is trying to avoid a moral judgment on whether A or B deserved to die. It happened, and I am trying to see what actually did happen. A lot (most) of these events have just been ignored by history, and indeed even by the descendants of the men who took part.

What I am trying to see with Ryan is who was employing him. He undoubtedly had fingered McKee and Clancy the previous November. I suspect that it had taken so long to catch up with him was because he was being "run" by Basil Thomson out of London to avoid Dublin Castle leaks.

Ryan must also have been involved in other information being passed back to British Intelligence. That is the sort of collateral that one will just stumble across when looking at another incident altogether.

An interesting point about Ryan is that he appears to be a Dublin man, complete with a wife, sister (albeit a Madam) and a brother-in-law. Most of the spies did not come with that sort of pedigree. They were English or Irish officers living in rooms by themselves.

Thanks very much for the Paddy Kennedy quote. I look forward to Bill Stapleton's version which I believe will back up Kennedys. At that point I think I would opt for the Kennedy/Stapleton version!
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Offline lanigangenealogy

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 20:26 BST (UK) »
Hey Corisande,

Thanks for the info and links to other posts - makes very interesting reading for someone like me who is new to this whole debate - I think I'll have to stop by Easons and start reading up on some of the books covering this period.

In the fullness of research I'm including here the documentation from Glasnevin Cemetery and photo of the headstone from Glasnevin also. I shall order Edward Byrne's Death cert to determine how he died "sudden" in County Clare and maybe shed some light on what he was doing there in Jan 1922.

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Offline Ms. Smokestoomuch

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #74 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 21:17 BST (UK) »
Hi
A bit outta touch but still following.
Last night RTE aired a programme called CSÍ: Murder in Little Jerusalem.
Very interesting. It seems Conroy was thought to be one of the main suspect in attacks on Jewish men in 1923.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1082417

Also Ryan who informed on McKee on the eve of Bloody Sunday, well I read somewhere his name was given to McKee himself as being a suspected informer. This was  in Sept. before McKee was killed. Mckee was said to have not thought there was enough evidence against Ryan and didn't sanction action against Ryan.
What luck if that is true.
Rafter, Smith, Hession, O'Gara, Leech, Durkin, McManus, Eustace, O'Brien, Hyland, White, Hoey, Maher, Martin, McConaghy, Flynn, Davy.
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Offline corisande

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #75 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 21:22 BST (UK) »
Quote
It seems Conroy was thought to be one of the main suspect in attacks on Jewish men in 1923. 

The cheapskates in RTE will not let me view that from Spain  >:(

Can you amplify what it says about Conroy for me
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Offline corisande

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #76 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 21:31 BST (UK) »
Quote
In the fullness of research I'm including here the documentation from Glasnevin Cemetery and photo of the headstone from Glasnevin also. I shall order Edward Byrne's Death cert to determine how he died "sudden" in County Clare and maybe shed some light on what he was doing there in Jan 1922.

1. You want to check the Irish papers for that date - there is nothing in London Times

2. I cannot imagine that it is an accident that he is buried with Clancy and McKee

3. I cannot imagine that he died of old age.
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Offline lanigangenealogy

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #77 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 22:56 BST (UK) »
Quote
1. You want to check the Irish papers for that date - there is nothing in London Times

2. I cannot imagine that it is an accident that he is buried with Clancy and McKee

3. I cannot imagine that he died of old age.


1. I also cannot find anything in the Freemans Journal or Irish Independent for county Clare that time period.

2. It is no accident as Edwards mother died just over a year previous (1 Dec 1920) and is buried in Glasnevin - he could have been buried with her.

3. Not old age as he was just 21 years old.

Offline Ms. Smokestoomuch

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #78 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 23:32 BST (UK) »
Here's a few notes from the Programme on the Little Jerusalem Killings. Summarised believe it or not.

Oct 31st 1923 Bernard and brother Samuel Goldberg were attacked at 95 Stephens Green
3 men approached. Samuel was attacked but managed to run and shots were fired. His brother was killed.
The National Army was said to have been seen in the area but wearing non uniform caps.
November 14th there was an attack on Emanuel Kahan and David Miller on Stamer Street. Emanuel Kahan was killed.
Police than started to suspect Ralph Laffan and James conroy as present at one of the killings. Ralph Laffan was arrested and he claimed Conroy and Laffan's brother Fredrick were involved and that Ralph was only giving them a lift
Conroy and Fredrick Laffan manage to have time to flee to Tampico Mexico.
March 1925 due to insufficient evidence Ralph Laffan was found not guilty. He was released on bail, fled to join the others in Mexico.
David Neligan was Chief Superintendent in charge of the investigation. (Ralph Laffan had asked to make his statement to him)
He pretended to not know Conroy and Laffan well as old comrades. But It seems he was likely to have been the reason they had time to flee.
Rafter, Smith, Hession, O'Gara, Leech, Durkin, McManus, Eustace, O'Brien, Hyland, White, Hoey, Maher, Martin, McConaghy, Flynn, Davy.
Ballybough, Ballina, Ballyinaglea, Sligo , Casleconner, Killucan, Royal Canal. Ballymoney(wex).

Offline Ms. Smokestoomuch

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #79 on: Tuesday 12 October 10 23:46 BST (UK) »
I should clear up
Ralph Laffan was released on bail for the other killing.

Also despite David Neligan's best efforts, Conroy was refused a pension when he returned in 1932.
Rafter, Smith, Hession, O'Gara, Leech, Durkin, McManus, Eustace, O'Brien, Hyland, White, Hoey, Maher, Martin, McConaghy, Flynn, Davy.
Ballybough, Ballina, Ballyinaglea, Sligo , Casleconner, Killucan, Royal Canal. Ballymoney(wex).

Offline corisande

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Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
« Reply #80 on: Wednesday 13 October 10 08:04 BST (UK) »
Thanks MsS. The only other question I have is that there appear to be 2 Conroys in the Squad

James/Jimmy Conroy - Ryan shooting
Herbert/Herbie Conroy - Upper Mount St on Bloody Sunday

Were these two related ?
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