Custom House Burning - Part 1 / John Wilson

[seanod]

This is great! I think there'll be enough left for my book - I have 66 names so far, the 66th being Michael Smith of E Co. (Thanks for that!) There were at least 120 involved in the Custom House, but I have never seen a clear breakdown of that figure. Is this just the people who were involved in the burning and the pickets outside, or does it include all the people who held up the fire stations and cut the telephone lines? Corisande, if you can tear yourself away from your tapas and Rioja (jealousy talking) - even if we don't share the same political perspective, any chance of quoting from your grandfather's very interesting document if I manage to get the book written?

[corisande]

There were at least 120 involved in the Custom House, but I have never seen a clear breakdown of that figure. Is this just the people who were involved in the burning and the pickets outside, or does it include all the people who held up the fire stations and cut the telephone lines? Corisande, if you can tear yourself away from your tapas and Rioja (jealousy talking) - even if we don't share the same political perspective, any chance of quoting from your grandfather's very interesting document if I manage to get the book written? 

Feel free to quote from my stuff.

I am interested to see how many were actively involved and where the 120 were sited.

One of the great problems with doing what you are trying to do is on the one hand get information that has not been in the public domain before (ie personal information from say viewers of this thread), and on the other hand aim off for tales that may be an exaggeration of someones involvement  As they say in Ireland "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

My feeling is that there were not vast numbers actually in the Custom House, but there were a lot loitering outside who may or may not have been involved. Really intersting to know where they all were.

The tales of people like Leach, the Assistant Secretary to the LGB having the "frighteners" put on him are, as you know fairly ubiquitous and indeed true. I would have thought that you could get quite a lot from government records on that

As for the tapas, it is a warm 25 here today, and soon time to pull myself away from the computer for the very same

[Gary Deering]

I think its the same with every family these storys get blown way up, also it serves some people to have others think they or there familys did big things in the past.Its very hard to get most people to admit there family where free state during the civil war !

I think there was around 90 captured, so if you could get that list you would be on the pigs back, I also heard something about a second set of withness statements taken by the army during the second world war,there is surposed to be a book out containing a lot of them. I think the idea was that if we got invaded we would use the tactics of the war of independence to fight the Germans or British, another guerilla war.

[Oaks and Acorns]

... My Great Uncle John Wilson (also known as Jack or Johnny)was arrested for his part in the burning of the Custom House in 1921...

Your honesty is a lesson for all of us. Thank you for that.

Dara.

[Gary Deering]

[seanod]

Getting the basic facts right is not easy . For example, many of the printed sources give the death toll among the IRA as 6. In fact, it seems to have been 5 and there are only five names on the memorial. Estimates for the arrested range from 70 to 100. Of these, I think the vast majority must have been inside the building. Remember they needed a lot of manpower to torch all the different offices on the three floors in a hurry and also to get the office staff downstairs in one place. The usual account is that the second battalion were inside, the first battalion outside with the squad. But Dan Head, who died outside the building on picket duty was of the second battalion.  And according to Vinnie Byrne, Eddie Dorins died with him and he was also second battalion. I am not even sure how many members a battalion would have had in that conflict. Mr Smoketoomuch, I was looking at your list of names. Tom Keogh and Mick McDonnell were both there (Keogh was captured) and I know of Vincent White but have no written evidence that he was at the Custom House, just a strong likelihood. I am trying to get hold of the Military Commission of Inquiry into the incident which was reported in the press (and seems to give specific information like where different people died) and which was used in the death certificates but I haven't located a copy so far. Corisande, many thanks! Hope you enjoyed the tapas and tinto.

[corisande]

Estimates for the arrested range from 70 to 100. Of these, I think the vast majority must have been inside the building.

I would be surprised if it was that many. My recollection of what my grandfather told me was that there were comparatively small numbers running around inside the building. Admittedly he was on one floor, but was taken down to the basement and would have had some idea as to the numbers. I must say I have not really done a cross check on what he wrote on the Custom House, but I have done a very thorough check on what he wrote on his life during the Easter Rising and it is remarkably accurate against official records

As with all these events there are many hangers on or spectators  who now want to be associated with it. It is very difficult to say whether a man claiming to have been in the building but never arrested, was actually there, or escaped without being caught. Or may just have been a spectator outside the building and somehow his involvement has been exaggerated within the family over the years.

[seanod]

Well, it would be in the interests of the IRA to play down the numbers and it would be in the interests of the British to exaggerate them, so I think around 70 would be the absolute minimum. Remember that they left the building by a few different routes, through windows and doors, so your grandfather may not have been in a position to judge how many there were. I don't think many were captured outside - they were either killed or they escaped quickly, realising that there was no point in staying because they were massively outgunned. And my information suggests that nobody was captured in the operations to take over the fire stations. It is certainly a possibility that people claimed to be there who weren't - I understand that happened in the GPO, but I think a figure of 70 captured is a conservative estimate. I would be interested to know if anybody reading this thread has any information or opinions to offer. Aren't there any academics with a knowledge of the time and the sources who read things like this?

[Ms. Smokestoomuch]

Sorry Seanod, I listed names my grandfather dropped in his description of a number of activies in the war of independence. None of those were referring to the customs house.
It was a cheeky stray of topic. And more directed to other grandchildren of E Company. Sorry.
The only reference I can use to the Customs House and my grand dad is his pension. So no other names to offer. But I'll keep my eyes peeled.