Mathews family.

[Steve G]

 Hyah, Nel. Please note; It's Way gone Midnight! 

In a concerted effort at damage limitation then, I'll try to control my own potential for 'Flux of the Keyboard' .....

 They were in a house on that hill?! Damn! Shoots to sh!t my happy visions, doesn't it? Like ye say though, five rooms ~ especially with all those people ~ was no Stately Home at that time. Unless it was a Big, workers cottage? But such places don't usually get labelled 'House' 

 I'd suggest ye simply feed " Ivy House Clapham Hill, Whitstable " into Google. Check a ton or two of entries and see if anything happens. That's what I do.

 For now though? Sorry. I can't even make out the little print this place shows me on ye regurgitated posts, below what I'm typing here. This is why I quote yeself back to me. So I can read it in bigger type face. Still looks like there's plenty to toss around though.

I Like conjecturing. Brain storm and kick a bunch of facts / Ideas around and see what repeatedly rises to the surface. What sinks. Never be afraid to be wrong. Never reject an idea as wrong. Burble. Burble, burble.

 Christ, Nel. Am I burbling now? LMFAO! Told ye! Nel? Never feel the need to apologise for having Enthusiasm for ye subject! 

[nelwild]

Thanks Steve,ive put Ivy House in,but nothing found yet.Ive discovered that i can view the 1911 pages ive paid for more than once,which i didnt realise before,so ive had another look to see if ive missed anything.Ive discovered that William jnrs address is Pie Alley Farm,Canterbury Rd.Theres a couple of things on google about that,one is the whitstable title award schedule 1840 which describes it as a homestead amount 0.1.16,i take it thats the acres or hectares or something.Theres another discussion site which paints a picture of a somewhat ramshackle area.Ive also noticed on the 1911 that it says William and Lily had been married 4 years,and they lost a child before little Lily was born.Ive been unable to find any trace of a marriage for William Spain/Lily Mathews,but have found something else quite intresting.There is a marriage a/m/j 1907 Lily Mathews/William Brien, faversham,which is about six miles from Blean.Whats made me think is Williams Mothers name was Elizabeth O Brien or Brien,she didnt marry his Father.Do you think he may have used his Mothers name,did that sometimes happen?Also there is no marriage that i can find for William snr and Maud Mary,the 1911 said they had been together for ten years,and since he was still with Elizabeth O Brien in 1901 they must have been just about to part company for whatever reason.So i dont know if theres any way i can find out who Maud Mary was.Ive spent about five hours today going through census/marriage records trying to progress further with Lilys aunts/uncles,and have drawn a complete blank.I still only have Phoebes Henry Newland,ive a feeling theyre going to be really hard work.Im going to put out a few seperate posts and try GenesReunited to see if that gets me anywhere,speak to you soon,nel. 

[Steve G]

 It's getting a bit 'late' again, Nel. I had to go into town and now I'm no longer my best .....

 Random thought or two:  Ivy House. Did they live there long term? Or was it a wintering quarters? Is it possible to check that address for a census either side? See whose name comes up as in occupation.

 If theirs is the only name given for that address when ye did find them? We have to accept they were living in the building, not pulled onto the surrounding ground. Otherwise it'd list 'Mr and Mrs Brown' as living there too, wouldn't it?

 Pie Alley Farm? Same thing again, really. And it'd be acres. Metric wasn't used in those days. One and one sixteenth of an acre? Bit grandiose to call that a farm. It'd be a small holding. About the same size as my place. Barely sustain a horse on an acre.

 If Billy boy was travelling, he'd want to get out of there shortly (Summer coming in as the census was taken) and get his horse ~ if he had one ~ out on the commons and verges. But, frankly? I've lost all track and have no idea whether we might suspect he was a Gypsy or not 

 One other thing sticks out here, to my mind, Nel; I'm having absolute murder keeping up with ye. Because every sentence seems to bounce around from one, vague, seemingly unproven, idea of a person to another. Ye carrying on like a ricochet in a names factory.

 May I offer a few tips then, on how to make all this a little clearer to the observer? One thing that'd help a great deal would be the simple use of that long bar, down along the bottom of ye key board, after every  "," or a "."

 I know ye use punctuation. And I'd be the last person to even guess at whether it's used correctly or not. But, punctuation without spaces is hard on the eye.  Ever see " Manhunter " ? Where Frances Dolahyde ('The Tooth Faerie') gets Freddy Loundes to read that statement? That's how ye stuff reads 

 Paragraphs would be excellent too. Just hitting " Enter " twice, each time ye change subject. In fact, paragraphing would be sweet. I think it's that, more than anything else, which makes it such hard work to follow what ye saying.

 See; I'm reading about maybe half a dozen people and places. But it's all flowing like a fast stream. No breaks. My mind just can't take it in. I can't separate ye points. That's why I, earlier, tried simply re typing virtually ye entire post. So I could absorb what ye saying.

 This isn't supposed to be a lecture, Nel. I'm genuinely trying to helf ye to help us to help you. Basic comprehension ~ for us ~ of what ye saying would be a good start 

 Then, I'd like to adopt a more proper and rigorous approach to the whole thing. Don't ye kick off by saying something like " One of my rellies, John Spain, was a Horse Dealer and married ..... " Something like that?

 Okay. Let's begin again. What proof have ye got that this man was related to ye? Is he listed on a Birth Certificate he hold ....?

 Come on, Nel. We've had a laugh. Now let's do this properly 

[nelwild]

Sorry Steve,youve got a point there.I tend to pour out my thoughts in one lump,reading it back does look confusing.

Now i know how to do paragraphs should help!

Im definatley related to these Spains.Since id started doing my tree id suspected for many reasons my g grandmother had Romany connections,ill detail why if you want.Her family was very difficult to find as she was illigitimate and spent all her life in Whitstable.Got her mum from birth cert,still dont know her father.

I then discovered from her mums birth cert that she was also illigitimate.That gave me her mother Susannah,no father,the census told me Susannah  was born Margate 1852.This is where i was stuck for about two years until a rootschater revealed shed been abandoned in thanet workhouse along with two brothers.

Susannahs mother was Jane Elizabeth Spain.Janes father was John Spain,labourer/hawker born 1796 Margate.

Johns brother was Stephen Spain b1801 Margate,fish dealer/hawker.His son was William Spain,horse and scrap dealer,married Mary Ann Streeting 24/10/1854 canterbury,daughter of a travelling general dealer.

Williams son William b1862 Ramsgate married 1st Ann Ditton 1877 Canterbury very short lived 2nd Elizabeth O Brien not married.

William and Elizabeth have 2 kids Elizabeth O Brien and William Spain O Brien.Elizabeth married horse dealer Albert Grey in Swansea.

Ive found a marriage in Faversham near Blean for Lily Mathews/William Brien a/m/j 1907 which could be theirs.

The 1911 shows William,Lily and little Lily living with Lilys sister May Mathews,17,general hawker.The address is Pie Alley Farm,a small homestead near Whitsable.   

im not certain the Spains were ever travellers,although they were believed to be descended from a group of Spaniards who were stranded in Thanet around the time of the Armarda,and their name wasnt originally Spain.Whats clear is theyre work brought them into contact with travellers,and marriages into travelling families occured,i have other examples of this.

The family im really intrested in at the moment is the Mathews.This is where i really need the help.At the moment i have Lily and two siblings,Lilys father William,mother unknown.Then 7 siblings and a father for William.

Will post more later,thanks,nel.

[Steve G]

  Nel, that was absolutely bloody brilliant! Bravo!

 I haven't even had a cup of tea yet. And yet I've been able to switch on. See that. Read and understand it all perfectly! Brilliant!

 Now, I just have to sort myself and creatures out here and then I'll come back and have a ponder. I'm wondering where I may search for ye Mathews people, somewhere other than where ye've already looked yeself.

 Internet's a big place. It can be hard for one person to cover all bases. I know I seldom come even near to it.

[Steve G]

  This just caught my eye, Nel;

'24, June, 1869. Mary Ann MATTHEWS; Living in a travelling van passing through Bisley.  Aged 6. Died of Scarlet fever and is now recorded in the parish register as having been buried there.'

 Could Mary Ann have been a sibling to your man?

Found that Here.

 If precious little else, it certifies that there were Matthews Gypsys in the right area, at the right time 

 Every little helps .....

[Steve G]

 Ye haven't mentioned seeing this, Nel. On " Romanies Reunited ". Third of the way down, on the right.

 They have a Henry Ayres, in his fifties and living alone in a tent. Then, bit below him, whole mess of Mathews', originating from Sussex but, obviously, travelling in Surrey a lot of late too. Having births there .....

 And that Henry is living along side them. Possible clue to a connection?


  Edited to include; That Matthews mothers name is Mary Ann! Put the ages together and what have we got? One of her first daughters would likely have been named after her.

 And, might that daughter have died of Scarlet Fever .....

[nelwild]

Steve,many thanks for this,i hadnt seen this 1881 entry.Ive noticed the names Phobe,Annie and Lydia,these are names that stick in my mind from my research,so that could be significant.

Also,ive noticed the Gerbdns(unusual name) stopping with them are from Maidstone,as was my Williams wife Ann on 1891.I wonder if that could be significant.

There is a Henry Ayres born 1830,Graywell,Hants with wife Hannah on 1871,wonder if thats him.On the 1851 theres a small colony of people staying at a place called The Camp in Longparish,Hampshire,mostly basketmakers and chairbottomers,one of them is Henry Ayres born 1828 Greywell,that could be him.Theres also an Alfred James Ayres there,but born 1848,but could indicate a family name. 

Im going to have another trawl round then ive got a bit of shopping to do,will be back after that.I will say i normally get quite refreshed on a friday evening,so if im still on after 9.00pm and begin to make even less sense than usual  youll know why,speak to you later,nel.

[Steve G]

  It's starting to look good, Nel. Plenty of 'smoke'. Could be a fire in there somewhere.

 Just bare in mind; This is all just 'brainstorming'. Digging things up and chucking them on the pile. But, once one starts getting recurring names and themes? I always consider it worth a damn good thrashing. Even then, I keep bits of paper with it all jotted down. One never knows when sifting through such stuff can throw up a blinder, even years down the line.

 Right now, I'm just waiting for my mate to get here. Then we're off out. I'll be back rather later and shall be, I assure ye, " Refreshed as a hand cart "! 

 Let's not expect too much from each other tonight ....