BROGAN family from Co.CLARE to Australia

[Carmel000]

Hi Christine (Turramurra)

I am a descendant of James Brogan and Ellen Horan through their daughter Mary Brogan (who married William Payne). I am very interested in making contact with you. I have just joined RootsChat.com. Thank you for your offer to share.

Carmel

[Carmel000]

Hi Joy Conroy

I'd like to get in contact with you about the Brogan family if you are still available.

Thanks
Carmel

[Bellejazz]

Hello all,

sorry for dredging up an old thread but after many years of absence from RC this is what has brought me back, a google search leading to this very thread! And I have made little inroads with this family so if this is a true connection then its wonderful because it will have cracked one of my toughest nuts.

I am a 3x great grandaughter of Margaret Brogan (b. abt 1835) who married Denis O'Neil in Goulburn NSW in 1857.

Some recent searches on Ancestry have resulted in suggestions that Margaret is the 18 year old Margaret who with her mother Ellen (the mentioned widow), immigrated to Sydney from Ireland with 7? family members on the ship China in 1854.

Much of the information seems to fit except I am struggling to make some links and understand the big picture.

I can't confidently place Ellen and Margaret in amongst the Brogans, some trees seem to suggest that a Bryan Brogan was Margarets father (+ mother 'Ellen'), and he died before the family emigrated but the only Bryan I can find was a "Bryan Hubert Brogan" who was married to "Penelope O'Brien" and if I'm following correctly they seem to be the parents of the Brogan brothers who emigrated? And also far too old to be Margarets father.

Additionally I have a death certificate for Margaret stating she died in Braidwood aged 96, was born in County Clare and her parents were MARTIN Brogan and Ellen Conroy.

My speculations/questions:

I know if she was 96 at her death maybe her memory wasn't too sharp or maybe the relatives got it wrong and her father was a Bryan and not Martin, or maybe Bryan/Martin was the son of Bryan Hubert and used Martin (middle name perhaps???) to differentiate himself?

Did Bryan Hubert & Penelope have a son Bryan?

Who was the James Snr. that sponsored the family to come out from Ireland? Was he the oldest of the Brogan sons? Did he himself come as well? Except for being the sponsor his name is not listed, only a much younger James.

Is anyone who has a better understanding of all the Brogans able to piece this together and help me understand it all?

[Bellejazz]

Actually with further investigation the whole 8 family members emigrating together including "Margaret and her widowed mother Ellen" doesn't make much sense either because there was a Bryan aged 36 included in the group which would be the right age to be the Bryan/Martin() that was Margaret's father.

The others were:
Michael aged 38
James 13
Ellen 30
Margaret 18
Patrick 27
Michael 14
& John 11

So confusing!

[Dundee]

The groups on the ship China in 1854.

1.

Ellen BROGAN, widow, aged 33 of Enniscorthy, Galway, parents Murty and Mary CONDRY (?), brother-in-law James BROGAN at Spring Valley near Goulburn

Margaret BROGAN, aged 18 of Enniscorthy, Galway, father Brian (dead), mother onboard.

2.

Patrick BROGAN, aged 27 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Bryan and Penny, both dead.  Brother James at Goulburn.

Michael BROGAN, aged 14 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Thomas and Mary, both dead.
John BROGAN, aged 11 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Thomas and Mary, both dead.
Both - Uncle James at Goulburn.

3

Michael BROGAN, aged 39 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Bryan and Penny, both dead.  Brother James BROGAN at Goulburn.

James BROGAN, aged 13 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Michael and Margaret, mother dead, father onboard.

.....there was a Bryan aged 36 included in the group which would be the right age to be the Bryan/Martin() that was Margaret's father.

Margaret's father Bryan died before departure.  Her NSW marriage cert should name both of her parents and if that information is missing then you would need to track down the church record as it will be recorded there.  This will confirm if the 1854 Margaret is yours.

I find it hard to believe that Penelope was Patrick's mother.  She was supposedly born around 1770 so I doubt that she was having babies in 1827.

Debra 

[Joy Conroy]

Have been following the tread maybe this can explain some of your questions.
After 20 years after becoming free James Brogan had become affluent enough to pay a deposit of 40 pounds in July 1853 to bring his 3 brothers and the survivors of their families to join him in NSW in the wake of the great famine in Ireland.

Teenagers Michael and John sons of James' older brother Thomas and his wife Mary; another brother Michael, a widower and his son James : Patrick, the youngest of the brothers and unmarried; and sister-in law Ellen, wife of his brother Bryan and their daughter Margaret all arrived on the China on the 24 September 1854. The last mentioned brother, Bryan did not arrive and his daughter's immigration record shows that her father was then deceased.

[Bellejazz]

Hi Debra,


thanks for the clarification, after a few days of piecing them together on Ancestry that's how I suspected the family groups aligned.


Unfortunately Margarets marriage certificate has limited information, only her Husbands name, their religion and place they married/resided (Goulburn NSW), no place of origin, no parents, nothing for either of them. It is without a doubt one of the most frustratingly useless certificates I have paid for, and I've bought alot!


It does mention a Mary Durick as a witness which I thought could be a lead as I believe that is a name that ties in with the 'main Brogan family' of this topic.


Margaret's death certificate was the main basis of all my info I have for her, and now after years of no further leads I found people on Ancestry who had connected her to this 'main Brogan family' group which led me to this line of questioning. Her death certificate mentions mother as Ellen Conroy (looks like) and father as Martin, birthplace Co. Clare.


How do I obtain a RC Church record from NSW? Is it likely to contain any more info that the official marriage certificate?


oh ... I'd had the same though about Patrick, to young to be Penny's son, there's something amiss there! 


Thanks,
Belinda

[Bellejazz]

Hi Joy, thanks for your response.


James seems to have prospered in the colonies after a rocky start being transported! Forty pounds in not a small amount of money 


I had done some sleuthing and figured out the family dynamics here. Now I just need to try and find out if MY Margaret is 'the Margaret' from the China, or if she's a ring in that somehow ended up in the same place in NSW at a similar time as all these other Brogans 


I've not yet been able to locate an alternative, appropriately aged Margaret in the Brogan trees I've looked at on Ancestry, so I'm hopeful its her.


Thanks,
Belinda

[Joy Conroy]

This is the information I had re Ellen and Margaret which you have;

BROGAN   Ellen, 1854, age 33, born Enniscarty Father, Murty CONDRY / Mary xxxx   Mother-in-law married to James Brogan, Spring Valley, near Goulburn *Ship China*

BROGAN   Margaret 1854 18 born Enniscarty,Father Brian / Ellen xx  Father dead;Mother on board. (Ellen Brogan, a widow).Ship China   
Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maddenps/GALWAYEM.htm

Bryan Brogan and Penelope O'Brien were the parents of James Brogan (the convict).