Author Topic: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil  (Read 6051 times)

Offline RonPrice

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 19 August 09 02:37 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Suz....no marriage certificate with the information you mention. I wrote an essay which you might enjoy--or others here--in relation to the Welsh and their letters and some personal perspectives in terms of the religion my father belonged to and that I joined many years ago. I leave this with you. It won't help with the search but it may be of broader relevance.-thanking you again.-Ron Price, Tasmania
----------------------
MIGRANTS

I want to add this short essay as a sort of addendum to my comments on letter writing, my letter writing and the letter writing of pioneer-travellers because it provides some historical context particularly for me as a person with Welsh ancestry and it seems particularly relevant to my autobiography.  I am indebted in my writing of this short essay which follows to a Bill Jones and his article Writing Back: Welsh Emigrants and their Correspondence in the Nineteenth Century, North American Journal of Welsh Studies, Vol. 5, No.1, Winter 2005.

Eric Richards has remarked in relation to British and Irish people who moved to Australia in the nineteenth century that migrants were “more likely to reflect on their condition and their lives than those who stayed at home.”   I’m not sure if pioneer-travellers in the Baha’i community did more reflecting on their condition and lives than those who stayed at home, but there is no question I did a sizeable amount of reflecting and I documented a portion of it in my letters, and after about 1995, in my emails. I am also inclined to think that, as the decades advance and as collections of the letters and emails of pioneer-travellers take form, they will reflect Eric Richards’ comment.

As is true of most European peoples whose histories took on an international dimension as result of nineteenth-century migrations, that emigrant letters became the largest and arguably the most important source for the mentalities, activities and attitudes of ordinary migrants. Commentators have long emphasised the importance of emigrant letters in illuminating the human and personal aspects of the experience of migration.  

Just at the time when the collections of Welsh migrant letters were first being published in the 1960s, my first letters as a Baha’i pioneer in Canada—a pioneer with a Welsh ancestry--were being written and collected.  A continuity of little to no significnace to the outside world or even within the Baha’i community at the time was taking place.  Perhaps, in the long run it would be a continuity with some significance. Time would tell.

Alan Conway’s collection, published in 1961, The Welsh in America: Letters from the Immigrants appeared just as my own collection was taking in its first letter.   By the time H. S. Chapman’s article  about letters from Welsh migrants “From Llanfair to Fairhaven,” in Transactions of the Anglesey Antiquarian Society and Field Club and Letters from America: Captain David Evans of Talsarnau, my own collection of letters were beginning to assume a substantial body of material for future archivists and historians, writers and analysts.  I belonged to a religion within which the letter had assumed more than an insignificant proportion and those mysterious dispensations of Providence would determine whether my letters and those of other international pioneers would take on any significance. As a non-betting man I would say they will.

This brief analysis can not do justice to the many dimensions that collections of letters from Baha’i international pioneers embrace, although I hope what I write here contributes in a small way by conveying something of the diversity and complexity of the subject. I am only discussing somewhat impressionistically a few of the functions of the letters of pioneers and the relationships between them and certain aspects of the process of pioneering.  I also want to discuss certain features of the letters as texts, examine some of their contexts and subtexts, and try to explain some of the complex ways in which this correspondence came into existence.  My remarks here are limited, though, for this is a short essay and deals with its subject in a general and personal way making no attempt to be comprehensive and well-researched. I seek to shed light on some of the experiential aspects of  emigrant letter writing and pioneer email writing and receiving in the period: 1971-2021, the period in which I was myself an international pioneer.

A collection of letters like my own are so unlike any of the nineteenth century collections from European or United Kingdom migrants to the colonies, the new world, any world outside of the Eurocentric world migrants had been born in. Their letters, their history, production and reception, intersected with, contributed to and were shaped by key contemporaneous developments in that part of the nineteenth century in which these letters were written. These included the conspicuous increase in literacy, the emergence of mass print culture and formal state-based education, the expansion of the postal service and of reading and letter-writing in general, the social and cultural practices of the time together with the growth of instructional literature devoted to a range of cultural and educational pursuits. -Ron Price, Tasmania
------NO MORE ROOM FOR THIS ESSAY---MORE IF DESIRED BY READERS-------

Frederick James Price

Offline KarenM

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 12 September 09 02:40 BST (UK) »
There is the following marriage in Ontario, Canada.  Is this your parents marriage Ron?

Frederick James Price
Age:  28
Residence when married:  Hamilton, Ontario
Place of birth:  Merthyr Tydfil
Occupation:  Soldier
Religion:  Presbyterian
Father:  Fred'k F. Price
Mother:  Annie Kate Walters

Emma Firth Spiers
Age:  23
Residence when married:  Hamilton, Ontario
Place of birth:  Philadelphia, Penn.
Religion:  Presbyterian
Father:  D. M. Spiers
Mother:  Ada Rhodes

Date of Marriage:  June 10, 1918
Hamilton, Ontario
Reg. No. 020493


Karen
Gandley (but known as Stanley in Canada)- Ireland to Birmingham<br />Ball, Kempson & Franklin - Birmingham<br />Shorter - Surrey<br />Dyer - Devon<br />Dawkins - Co. Cork, Ireland<br />Heffernan - Ireland
Huck - Alsace, France
Reinhart - Baden, Germany
Bowman & Ellis - England
Etheridge - Gloucestershire

Who all came to Canada in a little row boat, clap clap, clap your hands!!

Offline KarenM

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 12 September 09 03:02 BST (UK) »
There is the following arrival in New York aboard the Mauretania on August 7, 1908 departing from Liverpool, England.

Frederick James Price
Age: 18
Place of birth:  Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
Next of kin:  Uncle, Robert Walters, Adam & Eve Inn, Merthyr Tydfil
Destination:  Des Moines, Iowa


K
Gandley (but known as Stanley in Canada)- Ireland to Birmingham<br />Ball, Kempson & Franklin - Birmingham<br />Shorter - Surrey<br />Dyer - Devon<br />Dawkins - Co. Cork, Ireland<br />Heffernan - Ireland
Huck - Alsace, France
Reinhart - Baden, Germany
Bowman & Ellis - England
Etheridge - Gloucestershire

Who all came to Canada in a little row boat, clap clap, clap your hands!!

Offline RonPrice

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 12 September 09 06:57 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Karen M. You are certainly getting warm-- with both those chaps. But I know, or at least as far as my knowledge is exact, that my father was born in 1895. He died at the age of 70 or, to be more specific, at the age of 69 & 10/12ths in May of 1965 in Dundas Ontario. So I'm still on the march of search and I appreciate your efforts here, Karen M.

After several years of hunting at several sites, I can honestly say that you have come closer than anyone in the feedback a I have received at several of these geneology sites. You are to be commended for your efforts---and so..."I commend you." -Ron Price, Tasmania, Australia.
Frederick James Price


Offline Arranroots

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 12 September 09 08:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Ron

I think you need to tell us what information you do have about your father.

Do you have him on any census in the USA or Canada?

What about obtaining his marriage details - that seems to be essential now if you want to go back further.  When and where did he marry?

We could go on guessing at possibilities, but that could be a waste of time as with a "popular" name like PRICE in Wales there are just too many possibilities to be certain.

Kind regards, Arranroots  ;)
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN - HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD - GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS - WIL: WEBB, SALTER - RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS - GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY - MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD - SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON - IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK)

Offline RonPrice

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 12 September 09 09:22 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Arranroots. I have not found any Frederick James Price born in Wales somewhere between 1893 and 1895 on any census in the USA, Canada, Wales or the UK.  As I have indicated, I do not know what when he emigrated from Wales; I also do not know whether he went to the USA or Canada in the first instance, although I suspect it was to the USA.

I have searched in several census tables and think I need to do it again. I found the search in these tables and lists somewhat cumbersome to put the experience of the process mildly.

He was married in Burlington Ontario on 23 August 1943 to a Lillian Annie Cornfield, my mother, born in Hamilton. He was 48 and she was 39 and born in Hamilton in 1904, as far as I know.  It was my father's 2nd marriage and I know nothing of his 1st marriage except that he had 3 children, two of whom were boys killed in action in 1942(circa). Their names were David Miller, age 19 and James V. age 18 to 20(circa).

As you say, with a "popular" name like PRICE in Wales, with just too many possibilities when looking at census data and lists of various sorts. I'm not sure where to go from here, but I will go back to those labyrinthine census tables when time permits--for starters. Thanks, again, Arranroots.-Ron Price, George Town, Tasmania
Frederick James Price

Offline Arranroots

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 12 September 09 09:45 BST (UK) »
I'm glad to hear you have the second marriage - I'm not familiar with these certificates, but don't they give parents' names?

Sadly, this is all too recent for your parents to appear on censuses together.

I assume you've looked at the immigration records - Karen should be able to help you with advice, as again I am out of familiar territory!

Shame you don't know about the first marriage - not even a clue about which country?  If he had several children it must have been sometime between 1916 (when Fred would be 21) and roughly 1930 or the children wouldn't have been old enough to serve in WWII.  Still a wide window!

What occupation did your father follow - would he appear in trade directories?

If you could find him in voters' lists in Hamilton, you might be able to trace him back from there?

Very tricky!

;)
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN - HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD - GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS - WIL: WEBB, SALTER - RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS - GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY - MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD - SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON - IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK)

Offline RonPrice

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 12 September 09 11:21 BST (UK) »
Tricky, indeed, Aaranroots. Yes, I have finally located my father's 2nd marriage certificate. His name on that certificate is 'Frederick James Price' and my mother's 'Lillian Annie Cornfield.'

I need to go back to the immigration/emigration records since my father would have left Wales sometime between 1910(age 15) and 1920(age 25) and gone most probably to the USA.  I will try and consult with Karen when time permits since, like yourself, such records are also out of my familiar territory.  Two years or so ago I got lost in all the lists, if I recall correctly.

Fred's first marriage was to an Emma F. Price (whose single name is unknown to me). They were 'probably married in the USA' producing 3 children: David Miller Price, James V. Price and a third child, a girl, whose name I do not know since I never met any of his children and this information came via my mother decades ago. David Miller was 19 when he was killed in action circa 1942. David V. Price was also killed in action circa age 20, circa 1942.  And so it is that these two boys would have been born between, say, 1922 and 1924 when Fred would have been 27 to 29(circa).

My father had many jobs from 1920(age 25) to 1960 when he retired at age 65. My mother told me he was in the CIA or the FBi, but could not talk about his involvement in his line of work. I have written to both these organizations some 5 to 10 years ago now and they gave me no response. He was a stenographer, a cleaner,a miner and also worked in a wood yard, among his several jobs.

Yes, I could look him up on voters' lists in Hamilton, but I'm not sure what value that would be. As you say: "it's all a bit tricky." Thanks again, Aaranroots, for your very prompt efforts on my behalf.  I must say, I have never had such an immediate and useful response at the 10(!!) other geneological internet sites I have tried in the last several years.-Ron in Australia
Frederick James Price

Offline Arranroots

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Re: Looking for Fred Price: Born 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 12 September 09 11:54 BST (UK) »
I have been waiting to see which way this thread would go before deciding where to move it to - it's currently under Glamorgan Completed, which is wrong, so I am going to send it to USA where hopefully the locals will be able to give you enough information to trace back to Wales.

I suggest that you post additionally asking on the World War Two board about the boys, in case there are records giving next of kin information available.  Please remember to keep this thread and the new one updated, so that we don't do the same work twice though!

Kind regards, Arranroots  ;)
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN - HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD - GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS - WIL: WEBB, SALTER - RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS - GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY - MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD - SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON - IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK)