Christian St Clair - Able Seaman - which ship?

[velly]

Hello,

I have just discovered that my g-g-grandfather (Christian Percy St Clair) came to Australia aboard the M A Doran in 1895.  It was listed as coming from the port of Kaipara.  I understand that this is in Auckland?  On the crew list he is down as " C. St Clair  AB  20 London " (that's Abel Seaman, aged 20 from London).  He apparently 'jumped ship' once he reached Australia.

I would like to try to find out on which ship he came to New Zealand.  I have had a bit of a look but no luck.  Could someone please point me in the right(ish) direction?

Thank you for any help.

Vickki

[Lucy2]

Hi Vickki

Can you post the shipping link you found, please ?
(Kaipara to Australia).

Not finding anything at all for him in NZ at the moment. 
[And I did also view your other threads on this man and note there are difficulties with determining his parents etc.]   

Lu

[velly]

Hi Lu,

Yes, I'm not even sure this is him but it's my best bet yet.  And even kinda fits with family folklore with the 'jumped ship' story and his death cert (he died in Brisbane in 1950) says that he was in Australia for abt 55 years.

So, the record I found with the ships detail was via Ancestry.com and is from New South Wales Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922.  See attachment

I then searched further and found this http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1895/05/9505.htm

Does that help?

Vickki 

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[Lucy2]

Hi Vickki

Thanks ... yes, I'd already looked at the " Mariners in Aust. Waters" site earlier ... must have missed spotting this.   

I'd agree that this shipping record "looks a fairly good bet" for your man - though his age is about five years out ?

Was interested to see if this vessel made regular trips to NZ ... or whether "Mr. St. CLAIR" might have popped up as crew on another ship, but there seems to just be this solitary record for him ?   Grrr !   Frustrating !
Can find nothing in NZ for his "supposed" parents ... and there's nothing to be had at PapersPast either.

Will keep looking.   

Lu

[velly]

Thanks Lu.  I did see that the same ship had made the same trip from Kaipara to Sydney in May 1895 but have found no crew list. 

I think it is probably him.  I'm reasonably comfortable with the age difference as his death cert would put birth year at 1870, marriage cert at 1869 and son Leslie Herbert's birth cert puts it at 1872.  So it's a little all over the place.

He is certainly a difficult man to track down.  Finding him (or who i think is him) on this ship had been quite heartening as I thought that he may have 'invented' himself (down to his parents) when he arrived in Australia.

Do you know if there was a certification process for Able Seaman of that time.  Do you think there may be records in London or some such?  Would he have had to show a 'ticket' to crew the M A Doran?

Thanks so much.

Vickki

[Lucy2]

Hi Vickki

 I did see that the same ship had made the same trip from Kaipara to Sydney in May 1895 but have found no crew list.

Hi Vickki

Hmmm ... can only see records for this vessel "M A Doran" - into Sydney - December 1894 / May 1985 ... so not a lot of help I'm afraid.

Seems though that "M A Doran" worked the route, between Australian and New Zealand ports and that it wasn't a passenger vessel, as such.  (It was registered both in OZ and NZ ... and came into NZ ownership in 1896).

Do you know if there was a certification process for Able Seaman of that time. Do you think there may be records in London or some such? Would he have had to show a 'ticket' to crew the M A Doran?

Apparently there was no register of merchant seamen
...  (see the post made by "jorose" in your earlier thread).

Lu

[Lucy2]

I think it is probably him. I'm reasonably comfortable with the age difference as his death cert would put birth year at 1870, marriage cert at 1869 and son Leslie Herbert's birth cert puts it at 1872. So it's a little all over the place.

Hi Vickki

I think I would still treat this "find" (Kaipara to Sydney voyage), as a "maybe".      Sure, the "1895" ;  the "C. St. CLAIR" and "London" perhaps have some significance, but I do wonder about the "age 20" ?    (Would a chap really lower his age by five years ... and be paid a "boy's wage" ... although perhaps all A.B.'s were paid the same rate ?)

The thing is, with this departure from Kaipara  ... is that he would have had to have come into NZ, sometime prior ?
So maybe the "ship-jumping thing" occurred in NZ ?   And alas, no records available, nothing reported in newspapers.

Lu

[Lucy2]

He is certainly a difficult man to track down. Finding him (or who i think is him) on this ship had been quite heartening as I thought that he may have 'invented' himself (down to his parents) when he arrived in Australia.

Hate to say it       ... but it is possible that he "reinvented" himself on arrival in OZ.   Lots of people (for all manner of reasons) changed their names / identities ... and it was a relatively easy thing to do.    And of course alarm bells start ringing when "other information" doesn't stack up (or ... as in this case, the parents can't be located in records).   

When I was searching on "St CLAIR", I also looked at the QLD BDM's.    Some rather interesting info on that site.

I couldn't see a marriage registration for Christian Percy and Amy (for any year to 1929)  ... but you do have a copy of the actual marriage record, do you ?
*   And does that marriage cert. also give the details (provided by Christian Percy himself), of his parents ?

Lu

[velly]

Christian Percy married Amy Gertrude Parkman Scruse (she was previously married and though she says widow on the marr. cert she was actually divorced from her first husband) on 25 August 1908.

And yes on the marr. cert. Christian Percy's birth place is listed as Wimbleton (sic), Surrey, England and parents as Thomas St Clair and Violet Thurman with Thomas being a Crockery Merchant.

On his death cert. details are the same although his father is listed as Thomas Percy St Clair.  Also interesting that the death was reported by his second wife - Ethel Maria Dinning - and they were only married for under two years at the time of his death.  I'm assuming Ethel provided the info for the death cert. and that she also knew his parents to be Thomas St Clair and Violet Thurman.

And on eldest son's (Leslie Herbert) birth cert. Christian Percy's birthplace is listed as London, Surrey, England.

What a tangled web...

Vickki