Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.

[hiraeth]

Hi Ian

Have you checked out the Letitia Catherine Morgan reg Sep Q 1868 St. Asaph District at all?

How much do you know about William Morgan's family?  Could your mystery Catherine have been a niece on his side of the family?  

I also have Morgan/s in my tree.  I always search with or without an "S" when looking in Welsh records as my lot seemed to switch back and forth on the spelling

Heather

[wifeywebb]

Have found this very intriguing!!

Just a couple of thoughts (for what they're worth!!!)

If Catherine's mother was a daughter from Alice' first marriage then the birth would be registered as Roberts and not Morgan, unless Catherine was registered with the father's name.

Has Catherine, and William and Alice been found on the 1911 census. Maybe other rellies might be there to narrow the search a little.

Paula

[catanaccio]

No, not at all.  As I said in the earlier posts the strength of evidence is on her being born in either Salford or Hulme in Manchester.  

She was an educated woman and, when she would have been old enough to contribute to the census information herself (i.e. in 1901 and 1911) she always referred to being born in Lancashire.  Equally she spoke with relatives about her Lancashire heritage and her pride that as she was not Welsh-born that she was fluent in the Welsh language.

It was only in 1881 when her adoptive father would have provided information for the census that her birth place was shown as Wales.  We assume this was for convenience or to reduce any scandal or intrigue caused by the Morgan family bringing up a young girl who was clearly not their own.

[wifeywebb]

Are Alice and William still around in 1911?

Did Catherine have any children by 1911 and if so, are they all accounted for?

Wish I lived up that way, would have loved to trawl through the local papers for the time!!

[Arranroots]

It would be helpful if you would provide more information about the census - even if only the references - but I am still left wondering: how do you know that the girl in 1881 is yours??

 

[catanaccio]

Thanks for your input WifeyWebb.

We have done a fairly thorough search for the birth as a Roberts (the maiden name of the likely mother) and have not been successful.  Obviously we have looked for Morgan registrations too but we feel this is unlikely as the Morgan link only seemed to come in when she moved back to Wales.

We have searched around Hulme, Salford and Rhyl to no avail.  We are hoping that if we can find the date of birth we can focus in a little more closely.  We are not even 100% sure that originally the child was called Catherine ... that may have just been a name given she was "adopted" back to north Wales ... as this is reputed to have taken place at quite a young age.

The difficulty, if the family folklore is right, is that the liaison with the son of the visiting nobleman appears to have been a touch more serious than just the normal ships passing in the night ... in that they were still together in the caravan (for whatever reason!) at the point of the fire which was some weeks or months after the birth.  

Could the birth have been registered in the name of the father?  If so we are at a dead end until we find who he was!!!

Catherine was married with six children by 1911 and living in Meliden with her husband Herbert Jones.

William Morgan was born in Cwm in 1827.  We have him in all censuses up to and including 1881 but after that the trail goes cold although we have not found his death with 100% certainty.

His wife Alice (nee Jones, then Roberts) was born in 1814 in Tremerchion.  Again we have her until 1881 but no later.

[wifeywebb]

Interesting........ 1891 has William and Alice with a grand-daughter Gertrude Rowley, age 21 born Hulme, Manhester, Lancashire.

RG12/4627/39/4

Wonder if that's the Hulme conncetion? Not sure how though

[hiraeth]

Also daughter Elizabeth age 40 on the 1891 with William & Alice

ADDED She is listed as a Morgan and Single.

[catanaccio]

Hi, Arranroots.

We know from Catherine Morgan's marriage certificate (in 1896) that she was the "daughter" of William Morgan, a carrier.  And also that she was around 26 years of age and lived in Rhyl.  We know that when she moved back to Wales that she lived in Rhyl and that there is a connection with Wellington Road.  From recollection, although going back a while in my memory, this was the only Catherine Morgan in the Rhyl area of a similar age with a "father" called William.  To add strength to our conviction he was shown in 1871 as a coal carrier and in 1881 as a carrier.  One of the witnesses to the marriage was a Thomas Morgan and while I accept that is not the least common name in north Wales there is a Thomas Morgan who is the natural son of William Morgan and Alice.

It also all ties in with the family folklore passed down by a great-aunt who, although known to embellish occasionally, was a close confidante of Catherine in her later life and who provided us with the bones of the data before we substantiated in by our own research work.

It's not 100% proof, I accept, but that is why we are now trying to find more out about Catherine's life to add the little bit of extra proof.

The 1881 census is RG11/5528 in Rhuddlan
The 1901 census is RG13/5234 in Meliden