Author Topic: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.  (Read 11564 times)

Offline catanaccio

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« on: Monday 06 July 09 09:28 BST (UK) »
We have a mystery which is holding up our research. 

My wife's 2xgreat-grandmother was brought up, we believe, by a family member after the death of her parents.  By powers of deduction we think she was born between April and December 1869 in either Salford or Hulme in Manchester but don't know her name when she was born.  We know her as Catherine Morgan but she may have been neither a Morgan nor even a Catherine when she was born ... the man who brought her up was a Morgan but there is a possibility she was a Roberts or even something different still! 

We are happy to go through all parish records for the areas in question looking for clues but this would be helped if we can find out what she claimed to be her date of birth.  No living relatives can (or will!) help us. 

Does anyone have any idea of old records that we may be able to find that would give a date of birth?  Catherine died in 1956 so our obvious starting point will be NHS records ... does anyone know if it is possible to access historical data from the NHS?
Any suggestions would be welcomed. 

Ian.

Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,897
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #1 on: Monday 06 July 09 10:20 BST (UK) »
Hi Ian

I'm assuming that info on her marriage certificate lists her adopted father.

Given all your unknowns, my first thought would be to investigate the 'family member' who brought her up- looking at his siblings/parents and wife/siblings/parents, the cousins, etc.

This might lead you to a possible mother and father  for Catherine and thus to a birth cert.

Regards


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877762.0

Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,897
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #2 on: Monday 06 July 09 10:32 BST (UK) »
Are the people who brought her up a Daniel and Bridget Morgan?  There is a 10 mth old Catherine living with them on the 1871 in Manchester, St Michael - listed as daughter:

 RG10/4052 F 78 P 19


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877762.0

Offline catanaccio

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #3 on: Monday 06 July 09 10:56 BST (UK) »
Thanks Gadget but, sadly, the adoptive parents were not Daniel and Bridget.

The history as we know it, a good deal of which comes from an aged great-aunt with quite a good line in historical embellishment, is as follows:

Catherine, if that was indeed her name at birth, was born in Salford or Hulme (although there is also a suggestion of a connection with Rochdale) in or around 1869.  She was the daughter, we are told, of a young Welsh girl who was in service in the area.  Her surname may have been Roberts.  Apparently the Welsh girl had “a liaison" with the son of a nobleman who was visiting the house at which she worked.  She fell pregnant and had the child.  For whatever reason she and the father were, at some point later, in a caravan in the grounds of the house when a fire killed them both.  The child (who we know as Catherine) was taken back to Wales and brought up by William Morgan and his wife.  His wife is probably the mother (by an earlier marriage) of the girl who gave birth to Catherine.  Hence we heavily suspect that the people who brought her up were her maternal grandmother and her second husband, whose surname she took.  They are shown as a family in the 1881 Census.

Even allowing for 50% of it to be embellished you would think we had enough to find her but, to date, she has eluded us.

We are looking for:

a) Who was her mother?
b) In what name, if at all, was she registered
c) What was the house in which her mother was in service?
d) When, if legend is correct, were her parents killed

We are hoping that by finding her actual date of birth we can search the local parish records for the correct area and the correct period to find a possible birth certificate which might move our research on a little bit!!


Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,897
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #4 on: Monday 06 July 09 10:58 BST (UK) »
This is odd - I don't see a suitable one afterwards  :-\

Where do you first find her?


Gadget

added - just seen your reply and the Welsh bit and the Roberts - what part of Wales. Roberts is primarily a North Wales surname
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877762.0

Offline catanaccio

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #5 on: Monday 06 July 09 11:18 BST (UK) »
The suspected grandmother was called Alice Jones (b. 1814 Tremerchion, Flintshire).  She was first married to Thomas Roberts and secondly married to William Morgan.  She appears to have had six children with Thomas.  We suspect one might be the mother of Catherine but we are not sure which!  They are Mary (c. 1838), Elizabeth (c. 1840-c. 1845), Anne (c. 1843), Margaret (c. 1844), Eliizabeth (c. 1846) and Thomas (c. 1849)

The Morgan family (William and Alice) lived, with the mysterious Catherine, at 153 Wellington Road, Rhyl in 1881.  Also had connections with the village of Dyserth.  Alice was too old to have been Catherine's natural mother (would have been 55 at birth).

We have them in 1871 but without Catherine.  Equally we then lose Catherine again for 1891 before picking her up with her own husband (Herbert Jones) and family in Meliden in both 1901 and 1911.


Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,897
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #6 on: Monday 06 July 09 11:22 BST (UK) »
Ah - Flintshire - one of my areas   :D

We have a very helpful member on here who is a whizz at the Hawarden records office so I'll try to contact him about this thread.

A considerable numbr of young women from both Flintshire and Denbighshire went to Manchester to do domestic service, including my own direct line female ancestors.

Have you followed up all of Alice's Roberts daughters?

I'll see if I can find anything and hopefully Paul might find something as well  :)


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877762.0

Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,897
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #7 on: Monday 06 July 09 11:45 BST (UK) »
I've just been looking at the 1861-1881 censuses

In 1861, the only daughter at home is Elizabeth, aged 15. Have you followed her through to 1871 and beyond? Also, what about Mary, Ann and Margaret?

Was the marriage to Alice  William Morgan's first marriage?


Gadget 
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877762.0

Offline catanaccio

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help and advice needed on finding a date of birth.
« Reply #8 on: Monday 06 July 09 13:01 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the interest you are showing and for passing things on to your "Hawarden records" expert.

OK.  Here is what we have got.  Some might be relevant, some not!

Of the children of the Jones-Roberts marriage we have:

1) Mary (c. 1838) ... married John Wilcock (in 1862) and lived in Rochdale.  Unlikely to be the mother as already married at the time.

2) Elizabeth (c. 1840) ... died before 1845.

3) Anne (c. 1843) ... 1851 census as an eight year old in Dyserth ... then disappears.

4) Margaret (c. 1844) ... married John Cunnah (in 1865) and lived in Meliden.  Unlikely to be the mother as already married and no known links to Lancashire.

5) Elizabeth (c. 1846) ... 1851 census in Dyserth; 1861 census in Rhyl ... then disappears.

6) Edward (c. 1849) ... 1851 census in Dyserth; 1861 census in Rhyl; 1871 census in Meliden.

The children were all born in Dyserth.

According to the marriage of Alice Roberts (nee Jones) and William Morgan on 9 Dec 1854, William was a bachelor and Alice a widow.  They went on to have two sons, William (c. 1855) and Thomas (c. 1858).

Catherine, our mystery woman, was taken to Wales after the alleged deaths of her parents and brought up by the Morgan family.  She supposedly had a good quality education paid for by the family of her father (the owners of the house at which her mother worked).  Reliable sources suggest that on a monthly basis she was visited by a "grand lady" in a "coach and four" ... we think this may be her paternal grandmother.  This is the Lancashire family that supposedly paid for her upbringing.

Again, we are told that she was educated at a convent school in north Wales but we have not been able find any hard evidence of this.  She was though very well mannered, bilingual in English and Welsh and gave the impression of having had better than a standard education. If we could do so then perhaps school records might shed light on who was paying for her education and help crack our mystery.