Author Topic: Traveller ancestor ..still looking  (Read 17566 times)

Offline DNA

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #45 on: Monday 13 July 09 05:46 BST (UK) »
Hi Kath and Jaytoot
 I am back on line after a 2 day power outage on the peninsula where we live .We wouldn't live anywhere else but there is a price when storms arrive.
You are so right again!
The birth was registered by Minna Perkis (yes with an e) nee Taverner 22/9/1882
Grays Inn Only one name Constance.Father William Perkis...Traveller(Grocery)The birth being reported quite a bit later on 6/11/1882.Resident 29 Argyle Street.Pancras.As i mentioned before, looking at the census takers records 2 years ago the 1881 details for that address were destroyed "by Fire" with the other side of the street being available!!
The MC witnessed by the now well known Rintouls and Mr Zucco records Constance as Purkis "u" as you so correctly guessed and Edward,not William,as father and simply"Traveller".
But it certainly looks as though you have found Frederick Alfred in 1914 to 1920 .What was he up to in 1911? He and little Hilda seem to have missed the count.Like those pesky Perkis lot in the 1800's
What a tangled web they wove .My Welsh Hughes and Griffiths ancestors were simple in comparison even though non conformist chapel records  are so sparse
Thank you yet again
DNA

Offline jaytoot

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #46 on: Wednesday 15 July 09 10:01 BST (UK) »
Hi DNA

You orginally said that Contance Perkins was registered at birth at 29 Argyle street Grays Inn London. Also, that the records for this address for 1881 destroyed by fire.

I found this address in 1881 but the names of the people living there do not seem to help us. A search for Colin Reynard born born 1811 to 1815 should take you to the page.

What made you think that these records had been destroyed by fire?

regards,

Jim
james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey

Offline jaytoot

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #47 on: Wednesday 15 July 09 11:57 BST (UK) »
Minna Taverner is Minnie.

Free Bmd has a birth of Minnie Tavenner 1859 st James. March quarter 1a 336.

1871 Census St Anne Westminster
Gt Chappel street
Edward Tavener age 40 Dairyman Kingsbury Dorset
Mary A age 30 wife Barton Wiltshire
Minna age 12 Middlesex St James
Julia age 8 Middlesex St Anne
Thomas age 5 Middlesex St Anne
Jane age 2 months Middlesex St Anne

1881 Census
London Newington - Trinity Newington.
District Summary of Miss Tarns Establishment

Minnie Tavener age 22 Drapers assistant born Soho Middlesex.

This seems to be a large business with about 10 pages of people who are working there.

Hopefully this is her.


Jim
james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey

Offline jaytoot

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #48 on: Wednesday 15 July 09 17:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Again,

Free bmd had a marriage in 1886 st Giles Sept quarter.

search on Arthur Roland Cooke shows marriage to Min(nu)A Tavener, when you view the actual entry it is Minna Tavener.

1891 Census Kensington Brompton
4 Alma Terrace
Arthur Cooke age 25 Lodging house keeper born Nottingham
Minnie wife age 29 born Middlsex London St Annes
Cyril D  under 3 months - Middlsex London kensington

1901 Census Croydon

Minnie and Cyril are visiting her sister Julia Mould and husband Richard H(hopper) Mould at Birchanger road croydon.

1911 Census
Minna Cooke and Cyril d are at the house of Mary Anne Read (widow). Living at Stembridge Martock Somerset.

I think her son's full name is Cyril Dudley Cooke.

If this is the right Minna taverner that i have been looking at then she may never have married William Perkis. In the 1911 census she says she has had only one child but perhaps she wouldn't admit to anymore.

Regards,

Jim

james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey


Offline DNA

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #49 on: Tuesday 21 July 09 06:04 BST (UK) »

Hello Jaytoot
Returned from visiting daughters and grandkids (5yr old birthday party ! ).The Minna Taverner  you found could well be the right one. Constance Perkis was so clearly brought up by the Rintoul family;after the birth was recorded and William Perkis/Purkis disappeared and young Minna left to fend for herself.
When I was searching for the enumerator's actual Census record for 29 Argyle Street I got to the address only to find a message for that part of the street
"destroyed in fire".Can't say why it now appears to be there.
Thank you again for such great input.Unless there exists some record of travelling salesmen (groceries) I guess we will never find William and that chapter is closed.
DNA

Offline naomid

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #50 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 17:33 BST (UK) »
I know this is an old thread, but maybe I have new information...
I am researching a Frederick Alfred PELL, a motor mechanic, who had at least one (probably illegitimate) child in the 1920s. I suspect he is the same Frederick Alfred PELL that married Constance PURKIS in 1905 (and Georgina THORNE in 1940). I also believe he was killed in 1947.
I just need one thing to link the two Fredericks together. It would really help me to know all the addresses that he is known to have lived at, and details from the birth certificates of his children with Constance.

Thank you!

Naomi

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #51 on: Friday 12 July 13 05:38 BST (UK) »
Hi Naomi
Well that was a bolt from the blue. I can add a fair bit to the story. Frederick Alfred Pell married my wife's grandmother Constance Purkis at St Pancras Church 26/9/1905.The most significant witness was a Ann Rintoul ,who ,to cut a long story very short.had adopted or fostered Constance when her mother Minna Tavener was deserted by the father William/Edward Perkis/Purkis (both names occur on birth cert /marriage cert)
The address given was 3 Leigh Street, Pancras London where Constance had lived from childhood  and even at one time using the name Rintoul.
The 1911 census shows Ann and Constance as visitors at the home of Mr and Mrs Simpkins in Letchworth Herts with my wife's mum Edna Marion aged 4 Occupation is "Private Means" The second  child Hilda is not recorded but should be ???.
Of Fred Pell there is no mention or trace that I can find. But in searching I did find him continuing his book keeping back ground (as given in the marriage cert) in the RASC pay corps He served from 1915 in France and rose to the rank of Sergeant acting Warrant officer.He seems to have done well and got the basic war medals but deserted in 1920.
Constance brought up the girls basically alone from about 1912 it seems but Mrs Rintoul was a real loving help. I can't give you any other addresses I'm afraid and my wife doesn't know either until Constance's Brighton years when she spent many happy weeks with her favourite Nan.
Of Fred the deserter (in both senses ) I did find a reference to the burial of a Sergeant Frederick Alfred Pell at Islington Cemetery with his RASC number S/186093   on 26 Oct 1947.
Final bit...my wife recalls that her Nan spoke often of her good friend Naomi.   Coincidence ? or do you know yet more etc etc
We look forward to a post from you that explains the connection.
DNA
 

Offline naomid

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #52 on: Friday 12 July 13 16:32 BST (UK) »
Hi DNA,

Thanks for your reply.

I am researching for the child of one of Frederick's illegitimate children, so probably not the Naomi your wife's nan spoke about!

To match up my two Frederick Alfreds, I am hoping to match an address, or a housemate. I am 99% sure they are one and the same, but I need the proof!

Do you have any of the following certificates, and if so, could you give me any information from them:

Birth of either of the children of Constance and Frederick Alfred?
Death certificate of Frederick Alfred 1947?

Have you heard of any of the following people, who lived in the same house as Frederick Alfred's partner, with whom he had a number of children:

Edith M REEVE
Mary A REEVE
Margaret MEEKINS
Robert Charles TURNER
Alfred Dawes TURNER
Emily BRAUTIGAN
Jane BAUGH
Margaret Mary PERRY

They all lived at 15 Epirus Road, Fulham, as did Else May PELL / MEEKINS, his partner.

Any information gratefully received!

Thank you!,

Naomi
Hi Naomi
Well that was a bolt from the blue. I can add a fair bit to the story. Frederick Alfred Pell married my wife's grandmother Constance Purkis at St Pancras Church 26/9/1905.The most significant witness was a Ann Rintoul ,who ,to cut a long story very short.had adopted or fostered Constance when her mother Minna Tavener was deserted by the father William/Edward Perkis/Purkis (both names occur on birth cert /marriage cert)
The address given was 3 Leigh Street, Pancras London where Constance had lived from childhood  and even at one time using the name Rintoul.
The 1911 census shows Ann and Constance as visitors at the home of Mr and Mrs Simpkins in Letchworth Herts with my wife's mum Edna Marion aged 4 Occupation is "Private Means" The second  child Hilda is not recorded but should be ???.
Of Fred Pell there is no mention or trace that I can find. But in searching I did find him continuing his book keeping back ground (as given in the marriage cert) in the RASC pay corps He served from 1915 in France and rose to the rank of Sergeant acting Warrant officer.He seems to have done well and got the basic war medals but deserted in 1920.
Constance brought up the girls basically alone from about 1912 it seems but Mrs Rintoul was a real loving help. I can't give you any other addresses I'm afraid and my wife doesn't know either until Constance's Brighton years when she spent many happy weeks with her favourite Nan.
Of Fred the deserter (in both senses ) I did find a reference to the burial of a Sergeant Frederick Alfred Pell at Islington Cemetery with his RASC number S/186093   on 26 Oct 1947.
Final bit...my wife recalls that her Nan spoke often of her good friend Naomi.   Coincidence ? or do you know yet more etc etc
We look forward to a post from you that explains the connection.
DNA

Offline DNA

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Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« Reply #53 on: Saturday 13 July 13 04:41 BST (UK) »
Hello there Naomi
Well at least we have established that my wife has relatives she had no idea about via her grandfather Frederick Alfred.Can you throw any light on his death and subsequent burial ?
Sorry we do not have a birth cert for Edna Marion Pell as the date was 100% established long before we started on the Constance Pell mystery.
Best I can do is give birth date and place    20/5/1906  St Marylebone  London  you are probably better placed than we are to speedily obtain a birth cert with address etc as we live in New Zealand.
We would be delighted to learn more about Frederick's offspring illegitimate or not ...though it won't throw much light on his actions unless their are family stories from them and their children.
Addictive stuff this.
Regards and hoping to hear more.
DNA