Traveller ancestor ..still looking

[katherinem]

Here is Constance in 1891 and 1901:

1891 (RG12/122, Folio 26, Page 46)
3 Leigh St, Pancras
Ann            Rintoul, Head, M, 57, Newsagent,  Birth place Mile End, London
Constance E  "    , Daughter, S, 8, Scholar       Birth place St Pancras
+2 Servants

1901 (RG13/139, Folio 13, Page 20)
3 Leigh St, Grays Inn, Pancras
Ann            Rintoul, Head, Wid, 66, Newsagent, London Mile End
Henry        Miller, Brother, S, 76, Newsagent Asst     "         "
Constance Rintoul, Daughter, S, 18    "           "   St Pancras
+ servant

Kath

[DNA]

You are all absolutely wonderful (notice Steve I avoided fabulous to not disturb your sensitive Irish mind)
Constance Pell nee Purkis most definitely did wed Frederick Pell in 1905  I have a copy of the marriage cert.Mrs Rintoul was a witness.Constances first child was called Edna Marion with the youngest of Mrs Rintoul's daughters being a Marion I guess Constance had some affection for her.Edna Marion was born 20 May 1906 and another daughter Hilda 1908.Here the plot thickens for Frederick seems to have done a runner or died as it "seems " Constance had to go into domestic service .My wife's family just never discussed how she managed,
I will await your invaluable input.
Many thanks
DNA

[Steve G]

 Things will get a lot harder, now that we've crossed the 1901 line, DNA. All that's really left now is the 1911 Census. And that costs an arm and a leg to look at ~ and I find it extremely temperamental yet too.

 However, if we side step that route for a moment, we could try the two daughters of Pell there. One imagines they'd grow up and marry? Thus, of course, their own Marriage Certificates might hold a clue as to what their Dad's up to at that point. Could say " Deceased " and that would give us a certified link back.

 First bug bear is this:


Name:     Edna M Pell
Spouse Surname:    Power
Date of Registration:    Apr-May-Jun 1947
Registration district:    Fulham
Registration county (inferred):    London
Volume Number:    5c
Page Number:    1503


 Born a London girl, one automatically leans toward a 'local' marriage. But, 1947? Good lord; That'd make her 39 yo! Why so late? Was she That much of a moose?! Just doesn't sit well with me.


Name:     Edna M Pell
Spouse Surname:    Sims
Date of Registration:    Apr-May-Jun 1931
Registration district:    Greenwich
Registration county (inferred):    Kent
Volume Number:    1d
Page Number:    1921


 That one I Like! Slight shift to the east, look. And she's a young and very marriagable 23 yo. I like this one a whole lot more. And, can't ye see the diamond in there? She's met up with a Mr Sims! That's another Gypsy name!

 Now, if we accept that Melons was quite possibly of West Country Gypsy stock, then Edna here is half blood herself. And, in my experience, the blood finds the blood, however unconsciously. Maybe Edna was brought up on tales of how her mum was a Gypsy and had herself married one? Things like that can influence a mind.

 Once again, before any hard liners pop up and accuse us of doing this all wrong, picking our choices and trying to make the nicest bits fit; Yeppers. I, for one am. But I'm only working with what we have and what presents itself. It's down to DNA to get the hard evidence to prove or otherwise this conjecture. And I can't help it if the most likely fitting record out there just happens to throw us yet another Gypsy clue 

 Fun though, isn't it? Not sure what's worse, myself. This rather 'unprofessional' way of going about all this. Or the quite amazing level of 'coincidence'. Bloody Gypsys everywhere we look! 

[jaytoot]

Couldn't resist the 1911 census

Constance is in Letchworth the House is in the name of Frank Thomas Simpkin and Wife Celia plus children and a boarder

there is a line across the centre of the page
then it shows
~~~~~~~~-------------
Herbert Dobbs - bricklayer age 27

Ann Rintoul 78 visitor
Connie Pell age 27 visitor
Edna Pell age 4 visitor

It says Ann and Connie are living by private means. Both of them are shown as married. Ann states she has had 3 children and one has died.

Where is the other child?

Regards,
Jim

[Steve G]

  Ye belter, Jim!

Now; Where's Letchworth? I can't remember, off hand. Wonder if that gives us any further clues as to family movements?

 Anyway, I have to get off now. I'll be back this evening. I'll try to absorb what we have a bit better then.

[DNA]

Thank you Steve G and jaytoot. I can add stuff I should have included before.
My wife's mum was Edna.Marion and dad,of course ,Eric William Sims.
Finding Constance in 1911 back with Mrs Rintoul was something my wife and I had talked about as a real possibility if Fred Pell was deceased or just "gone".Then the 1911 reference to 'living by private means".There was always this "story" of Constance being in the service of some wealthy guy who left her property and the odd valuable or three(like the silver my wife got from her nan
Constance which we still have).
This takes us to the Pells.On the marriage cert Frederick Alfred's father is given as
"Gentleman" Caleb Pell.When I traced the Pells in 1901 Caleb/Charles was still a coachman employed at Warberry Court Ditton Devon,just one of 10 servants so even if his employer popped his clogs and left some dough to Caleb it wouldn't have been enough to buy off Constance and get young Fred off the hook.All very strange and probably now impossible to resolve.
There were two other witnesses to the marriage who are interesting
Marion Newman (nee Rintoul no doubt)
Geo de Sylla Zuclo ?
I did discover Geo had a telephone in 1901 so he must have been solid upper middle class or striving business man.
 Constance at about 16 or 17 was actually a young lady gymnast and spoke to my wife of the training they had to do and the only surviving photo is of her in tunic and tights with a skipping rope in hand....very daring for the times.
After all the efforts the least I can do is to try and scan the photo and send as a contribution to the lovely side bar illustrations you have.
So,the real mystery of William Pell and Wilhemina Taverner will probably remain
just that but maybe Fred and Caleb will appear somewhere.
Eric Sims,by the way,has his roots in Gayhurst Bucks and a long line of Ag Labs

Very many thanks again. the detective work aspect is gripping stuff
DNA
       

[Steve G]

 Hyah, DNA. I'm still up and about ~ though I'm in amongst the Jameson now, so don't expect too much sense out of me tonight! 

 As part of my own evenings digging though, I came across Edna's birth records (Of course, ye have that covered so I didn't bother any more with it).

 Now though ye bring us yet more tantalising snippets ....? Ye certainly know how to present the gauntlet, don't ye?! Besides which, this is just such a potentially juicy story, isn't it? What starts off as, apparently, a young girl who runs off with a Gypsy. Then ends up graciously showered with favours from a Gentleman? Stuff of  those novels my old mum used to like!

 One thing to hang onto here, mate; New material's being made available all the time. And there's always one more stone, and a steady stream of willing stone turners. Give it a rest, by all means. But Always come back for another stab. Some of my own stuff has taken years and yet has surfaced only in the last few days! I find it because I keep coming back for another try ~ and thus discover newly exposed sources.

 Anyway, like I say; I'm 'Relaxing' somewhat just now. I'll look again when I'm fresher. This has me hooked!

 Photographs of athletic young women, in tights and with skipping ropes?!  MATRON!!! Ye sure know how to keep the troops morale up, eh? 

 Now I'm off ~ Before they chuck me out! LMAO!

[jaytoot]

Hi DNA - very interesting background information.

I cannot see Caleb in the 1911 census though freebmd records his death in chelsea in 1934 age 79, so where is he after 1891?

I forgot to mention that on the 1911 census James Henry Rintoul is alive and well.
He is living in bloomsbury age 71,  he has written his date of birth down as March 26, mariatal status Single.
He has a servant called Annie Willy, she is 34 years old.
Under profesion he says Independant.
Now where has he been since 1861?

If Constance was a gymnast does that mean she was a performer in theatre?
Was the mysterious sounding Geo de Sylla Zuclo an agent or theatre owner?

One thing I am not sure about is that when Constance was born, her father is listed as a Traveller. I have very limited knowledge but would someone from the Roma/Gypsy community have been recorded as a Traveller? Perhaps it means travelling salesman?
Has anyone who traced their Roma/Gypsy roots seen the ancestors recorded this way.

Steve G is right it sounds like a novel!

Regards,

Jim

[katherinem]

Marion Newman (nee Rintoul no doubt)
Geo de Sylla Zuclo ?
I did discover Geo had a telephone in 1901 so he must have been solid upper middle class or striving business man.
 

There was a marriage between William Newman and Marion de Sylla Zucco in the reg dist of Dover in 1896 - wonder if this could be Marion Newman witness!

There is a medal card for a Hon Lt George Desylli Zucco serving with the 7th Bn, W York Regt, it has an address of 44 Springfield Rd, NW8 on it.  On the london gazette website; which is www.london-gazette.co.uk, he is listed as George De Sylla Zucco.

Also if you type Zucco on the london gazette website, there is a lot of info (bankruptcy in 1875 and 1880) about a Nicholas De Sylla Zucco; whom died intestate on the 13 October 1910, could this be where the money came from?  Nicholas is on the 1891 as a General Merchant and 1901 census as a Tobacco Merchant, he was born 1830 in Corfu, Greece.  It might well be worth spending £5 to get a copy of the probate.

Kath