Traveller ancestor ..still looking

[Steve G]

I'm not sure  we're completely through yet, DNA. I still have unresolved questions bugging my mind, as I suspect Kath and Jim might have. Also, there's the simple fact that I've been so blinkered in my own approach, simply because I was consciously Gypsy Hunting. That's bound to have biased my thought process and eye.

 Also, now the heat's off for a minute, I'm looking back and realising how much I missed. Kath, eg. has already mentioned, indeed found the MIC. That had gone right over my head    and now, having read through the lot again, I find myself sitting here thinking, " Pell? Where the hell did That one spring from?! ".

 See? I'd probably looked at it. Thought, " Naah. Not Gypsy. " and pretty much dismissed it as of no interest to me.  See what I'm saying? Completely blinkered in my head long rush to pin the Gypsy labels. Now I'll be wanting to slow down and go back. Taking a more open minded and considered look at a thing or three.

 Anyway; Ye 'went back to the Cert''? So, ye have the MC of Mr P? Ok. Spell it out, please ~or better yet, scan it and get it up here so we can see / decide for ourselves. What Exactly does it say? Every bit. And shouldn't it mention his Fathers name and Occupation?

 I just have the gut feeling we're being drip fed only partial information here. If we could see the whole picture, as you are, we might spot things you may not consider important, or even notice ..... like " Grocery " 

[DNA]

SteveG
but also Kath and Jaytoot.My scanner is let's say non functioning at the moment,so here goes with the MC.
26/9/1905 at the Parish Church of Saint Pancras
Frederick Alfred Pell 22 Bachelor .Cashier of 3 Leigh Street
Father Caleb Pell Gentleman
Constance.Purkis.Spinster. of 3 Leigh Street
Father Edward Purkis.Traveller
in the presence of
Geo de Sylla Zucco
Marion Newman
Ann Rintoul
Henry L Paget Vicar

As I mentioned before (sometime!) Caleb recorded himself as Charles in the 1901 Census when he was a coachman at Warberry Court Ditton Devon.
Previously in 1891 a coachman in Hampstead at a huge establishment.Where the Gentleman comes from heaven knows.
My wife and I have decided to send for her mum's MC (Edna Marion Pell ) in the hope that father's name occupation etc may be given or at least confirm he was deceased.
That 1911 Census information with Edna Marion being with mother Constance and Mrs Rintoul at Letchworth gives rise to question Where was poor little 3 yr old Hilda? With Marion Newman perhaps or(big or) dad.
My wife really loved her nan and all the time over the years she lived with her and she suddenly recalled today the exquisite furniture she moved into the house in Brighton from storage somewhere.Not your usual chipboard with a veneer!
The Sims and the rest of the Pells ,other than Fred,where so straight forward
to trace ,it's just those pesky Purkis/Perkis lot and poor Mina.
Great to have your help    ...DNA

[katherinem]

Hi everyone.

Kath I couldn't find Marion in 1891 what last name is she using.
Jim

Apologies for the late reply Jim, Marion and George are transcribed on A******y as Trucco, the reference is RG12, Folio 91, Page 45.

Have just looked at the census again and just realised that there are several families living at the same address, No 9 M............. (cannot read the name!).  The first person in the household which starts on the previous page is:

Elizabeth Rintoul, head, S, 36, Newsagent, St Giles.

Still trying to find a connection between Purkis, Taverner, Rintoul, Zucco.

Has anyone found Ann Rintoul in a census before 1861?  I am intrigued by her marriage to James Rintoul, as Freebmd has her name as Ann Lone, whilst the IGI has Ann Lone or Millin.

Kath

[jaytoot]

Hi Kath,

thanks for the update
In 1891 cens
living at 9 Marchmont st Bloomsbury

Elizabeth Rintoul age 36 Newsagent

Marion Trucco age 29 widow dressmaker
George (son) age 5
Edward  Perkins age 38 Widow Theatrical prompter - born London brompton.

So now we have Perkins Rintoul and Trucco/Zucco at the same adress.

I found James Rintoul in 1881
James Wintoul Married Cab proprieter.
Nellie Gerrard visitor age 34 married.
He also has a servant living with him.

I thought Ann Rintoul would have been Ann Miller due to her brother John Miller being with her in 1901 census.

I havn't Found James and Ann together exept in 1871 under the name rintard.
According to that James would have been 15 when his daughter Elizabeth is born.

Still we at least have the theatrical link that may have prompted George Zucco to become an Actor.

Where next.

Regards,

Jim

[katherinem]

Hi,

Ooh never associated Edward Perkins as the elusive William/Edward Purkis, of course the names sound so similar.

Ann is on the 1861 transcribed as Rinbeal as follows:

24 Evesholt, Marylebone (RG9/109, Folio 20, Page 40), all born St Pancras
James Rintoul, Head, Mar, 24, Pianoforte Maker
Ann         "     , Wife,  Mar,  27
Ann E      "     , Dau,            7

As Ann (Elizabeth) was born about six years before James and Ann were married and as you have mentioned James would have been about 15, I would think she is the product of another liaison, have yet to find a birth reg yet.

Kath

[jaytoot]

Hi again

the marriage of James and Ann is strange because as you say free bmd shows a possible match for James Rintove or Rintowl (mis transcribed). I can find no mention of Ann Millen, but Ann Lone is there but the volume page does not match.

On the 1891 census for Marion Trucco - hold your horses!!!!

This name is transcribed as Edward J PERKINS (not purkis). Where it says he is a theatrical prompter just above this it says something like Arg - it's messy.

Jim

[jaytoot]

I found a marriage on free bmd in 1893

It is not concrete as there is another couple on the page though i think a search of the 1901 cenus discounts the other couple.

1893 June quarter St Giles
Edward James Perkins
Elizabeth Anne Lone

could be just coincidence?

I couldn't resist the 1911 census again.
31 Burton street Cartwight villas.

Edward James Perkins - Newsagent age 57 born london compton
Elizabeth Anne Perkins age 56 born st giles
Henry Millen age 85 wifes uncle

There are a number of residents(lodgers and boarders) one is called Mary Louisa Bunn age 25 American Variety Artiste.

Jim

Jim

[katherinem]

Fantastic!  With the 1911 census you have found Ann's brother Henry again and this time he is Millen.

With reference to the marriage on FreeBMD, if you view the pages the entries for James Rintowl (Rintoul), the entry is actually Rintoul and the page number is 20, the same as Ann Lone.  Also this marriage is on the IGI, the marriage was on the 1 Jul 1860 at Old Church, St Pancras, and for Ann it say Lone or Millin.  Now that her Elizabeth Ann names are the right way round (1861 had Ann E), have found her baptism on the IGI, father John Lone, mother Ann, at Finsbury in 1855.

Just as I thought -  Ann was married before James Rintoul!  Right off to do some more digging!

Kath

[jaytoot]

Kath

found 1841 henry Millen

Family recorded as Mellen in census transcription

Edwin age 62 bookies ?
Eliza age 46
Henry 15
Edward 10
Ann 8

This might be ann and her brother

jim