Can a Change in Faith bring a Change of Name?

[The Geneal Geologist]

rossliv - Kind of you to look. Unfortunately, the couple I seek will be newlyweds in their early twenties. They may have one child maximum, but according to records the first was in Dec Qtr 1851- Their ages and the children eliminate this couple. Phebe was a Tipton WHITEHOUSE.

[Lydart]

St James is celebrated on 25th July ... would that tie in with the baptism or his birthday ??

[heywood]

Hello,

I think Vatican 2 changed the way the church regarded other christian baptisms - that's just by the way though.

These are my thoughts re the name:
It looks from what you say- that he has the same name for his marriage and early children so, for whatever reason, he was calling himself Patsy then. (My sister who died almost a year ago was known as Patsy to our Irish family- brings back memories  .
It may have been more beneficial for work etc to have a less Irish name so perhaps he called himself James - I would imagine that he had the two names anyway.
Another by the way is that I was searching for my Tipton Whitehouses and eventually found them baptised in the Methodist church - not as infants but as a group of children.

heywood
(at the moment can't see them in 1851- are there any missing records for Tipton?)

[The Geneal Geologist]

Lydart - Hard to say whether he was 25th July (James) or 17th March (Patrick) as no details of birth or baptisms have survived within the family. The family stories date from a grandchild who remembered uncles and their stories in the very early 1900's and passed on to current children who are now in their 80's. I keeping checking the area now and again in case even adult baptisms (as suggested by heywood) appear in the records. The family stories have otherwise panned out quite well as I've found matching records.

Heywood - Patrick/James was James in 1841, which is his earliest known record (aged 11, although incorrectly aged 4 on index - the original is clearly 11). I've often found census records have a second name or initial, but they never appear in public records (birth, baptism or death) and I have many Victorians who prefer their second name to their first in everyday life, but at least their BMD records support both.

As you note, they do appear to be misisng from the 1851 Tipton census, although they were in Lower Green in Q4 1851 for the birth of child Mary MACK (sic). I have examined most pages of the Tipton records from time to time, but no name/age combination seems to satisfy. They were married at Dudley St Thomas in 1849 and were both given of "Castle Street", which I presume is the Castle Street in Dudley (rather than the same name in Tipton). Does anyone have access to this part of the Dudey census to see if they were still there?

I was wondering whether there's a mix-up in the entry found by rossliv. Patrick & Phebe are given as lodgers, with no head of household at that address (perhaps missing). They may have mistakenly been given the ages of the Heads of houseold and their children incorrectly attributed to them. There's no match for the name coupled Patrick/Phebe in 1861 with an 1803 Ireland birth for both.

Can't rule out Patrick/Phebe were visiting Ireland in the period or his other sibling Luke, who I am trying to track down.

Thanks for your interest and observations.

Mark

[behindthefrogs]

Hello,

I think Vatican 2 changed the way the church regarded other christian baptisms - that's just by the way though.

My understanding is that is that while Vatican II, which started in 1962, changed the status of infant baptism to that of a sacrament it did not make any changes with regard to the status of baptisms in protestant churches.

There is some background documentation from the English Roman Catholic Church which seems to underwrite that baptisms in the Anglican church are acceptable.  However there is a question about whether those of some protestant churches are invalid due to their views on the Trinity.  As a result where there is doubt a conditional baptism is recommended.  It may be that is what happened in the case of my friend as I would not at that time have been aware of conditional baptisms.

At the same time it seems to also have been reaffirmed that the name given in a Roman Catholic baptism should be from a list of acceptable names which are mainly of saints.

David

[toni*]

i'm sure it can and has occured with the Jewish faith

[halfasheep]

I would point out that I have a Patsy in my family who appears as Patrick on all the census returns. However, his birth certificate states his given name was actually Patsy (as does his death certificate). Son of Irish immigrants, so it may be worth searching for a birth under the name Patsy as well.

Personally, I thought my family had gotten the name wrong when telling me about him, but the certificate definately states Patsy

[rossliv]

Hi

sorry doublechecked and Patrick 1851  is Head

Do You know what the parents of Phebe are called?  Is there a surname Lucas connection anywhere?

[The Geneal Geologist]

rossliv - Phebe was a WHITEHOUSE. No known LUCAS connection (even with her siblings, who are well documented). The Patrick/Phebe combination is unusual (especially McD), so I can't help feeling the Wood Street entry is them, but somehow misrecorded. We'll never know.

Thanks for checking.