Can a Change in Faith bring a Change of Name?

[The Geneal Geologist]

I'm trying to explain the occurence of the same person appearing to have 2 names throughout his recorded history. Either name is found connected with the same spouse and same children, but never together, so it is almost certainly the same person.

Imagine the child of Irish immigrant born essentially a Catholic in the late 1820's English Black Country. He appears on the 1841 census as James, but marries as Patsy (short for Patrick) in 1849. His early children have Patcy or Patsy as the father and he dies as Patrick in 1878. On 1861 & 1871 census he is at home with his family as James. Upon marriage, the same children who has Patsy as a father on birth, now have James as the father.

Would conversion in the 1820's result in a name change? I am thinking one is a baptismal name, the other the family name. Unfortunately, no baptisms found. Clearly, the change occurred before 1841, with no census evidence that he was James P. or Patrick J.

Thoughts appreciated, especially if you have similar examples. I have another Black Country example where a Job WHITEHOUSE appears to have also become James later on, but this is much later in the century.

[beady]

It will depend who you want to change Faith with  !!!!

[DudleyWinchurch]

Hi Masgrace,

there could be any one (or more) of several things going on here.

I have several people in my family tree, not just catholics, who have more than one given name and who (themselves or their parents) seem to treat these as interchangeable, such as infants whose birth is registered in one order but whose death is registered in the opposite order a couple of years later.  Also women and girls in particular with two names who appear even alternately on various censuses with each name and no indication of the other name.

There is another possibility that he is James Patrick with James being after his father and so not used in any family context where his father is around but that at some stage later he became aware that it was his "official" name and so used it just in "official" contexts.  Was the 1841 form likely to have been filled in by himself or his parents?  You don't say what happened in 1851.

You also didn't mention quite where in the Black Country he was from which may also be significant.

At confirmation, catholics often take another name, after a saint whose life they have at least briefly researched.  This may then be used, usually, in addition to baptismal names or just included as an extra initial.  Later in the 19th century in the Bilston Holy Trinity parish, a number of young people (what we would now call teenagers), including some in my family, seem to have used their confirmation name as their principle name, sometimes for the rest of their lives.  I don't know how common that was elsewhere at the time.

Similarly, anyone converting to catholicism at any age might adopt a confirmation name as they would be likely to be confirmed on completing their instruction and induction into the faith.

[behindthefrogs]

It was fairly normal for someone who was baptised in a Roman Catholic Church to be given an additional name.  This was usually the name of the Saint whose day fell on or nearest to the day that they were born (or maybe it was baptised).  This actually led to some surprising results like girls named Mary Maria or even boys called Mary.

If your case was a late baptism this may account for the name change.  Although most churches go a long way to avoid repeating a baptism the Roman Catholic Church is a known exception and does re-baptise people previously baptised by another denomination.  On the other hand the Anglican Church has a special conditional baptism ceremony for people who don't know if they were previously baptised.

David

[DudleyWinchurch]

The catholic church does not rebaptise anyone known to be be properly baptized in the first place but does have a form of "conditional" baptism for cases where there may be some doubt, such as in cases of an emergency baptism by a parent or other relative.  That is why you will find entries with "sub con", "c" or "s c" next to them in the registers.

[behindthefrogs]

The catholic church does not rebaptise anyone known to be be properly baptized in the first place but does have a form of "conditional" baptism for cases where there may be some doubt, such as in cases of an emergency baptism by a parent or other relative.  That is why you will find entries with "sub con", "c" or "s c" next to them in the registers.

I basically agree.  The problem is that in the past many priests did not regard anyone baptised by another denomination as properly baptised.  I know of a specific case back in the 1960s of someone who was brought up in the Congregational Church who converted to become a Roman Catholic in order to marry a Catholic girl.  Despite presenting the priest with his baptism certificate, he insisted on conducting a full baptism service.

David

[DudleyWinchurch]

Yes,

It's against the rules but did not mean that it didn't happen.

I have been informed that there were cases of priests (in the Midlands, but undoubtedly elsewhere as well) being admonished for doing just that.

[The Geneal Geologist]

DW & BTF - Thanks for the debate and information. It seems a possibility then. As I don't have the exact DOB it is difficult to know whether the Saints Day for James is relevant.

DW - I was unable to add 1851 as James/Patrick has not yet been located. It was shortly after his marriage in 1849 Dudley and I can't find his spouse either. One of the frustrations of a family name that can be phonetically written all kinds of ways by enumerators. He was a coalminer and could have gone to any coalfield (temporarily), as many from Tipton have done (both go and come back). He was in Tipton Lower Green by late 1851 for the birth of first child. I have looked at the census for LG area in 1851 (I have access to one film) and not spotted him and his wife (they should be James or Patrick or Patsy McDONALD & wife Phebe). It suggests they should be in the area (later census in nearby Watery Lane & Waterloo Street). Perhaps LG is covered on more than one film?

I can rule out James as his father, at it is Luke.
Family stories say he was Irish Catholic and his wife was a Methodist.
James/Patrick and his one sister I have been alble to trace generally have Dudley or Tipton as place of birth, however both in separate census (once only) have Shropshire. In 1871 he was Wellington, SAL and in 1861 she was Oakengates SAL. As these were done in separate times and separate places, with both as married adults, I assume this is not an error (as these villages are neighbouring) and suggests the parents were briefly in the now-Telford area in the period 1829-1832 when both were born. Again, no baptisms found in SAL.

The family were in a house full of Irish families (all Agr. Labs) in Wolverhampton Street, Dudley in 1841, and I know they arrived around 1822/23 as their first born, John, was baptised in Stone, STS with parents named and described as "Strangers on Travel". Prob. travelling down from Liverpool have just arrived from Ireland. I know they are Iirsh as the father just gets in on the 1851 census to confirm his POB before he dies in Tipton.

If anyone has access to films of the Tipton/Dudley census in 1851, I would appreciate another eye if a James/Patrick/Patsy & Phebe McDONALD could be found (often recorded on census simply as MACK, but could be worse than that - married as McDONNER). The index isn't helpful. Upon marriage in 1849, they were in Castle Street, Dudley.

Thanks & regards,
Mark

[rossliv]

Hi
Could this be them

H0107 2029 249 Page 49
185 Wood Road, Tipton, Staffordshire

Patrick McDonnell Head 47 (Not sure Prof) Ireland
Phebe  McDonnell Wife 37 Ireland
Thomas McDonnell Son 8   Scholar Staffordshire
Margaret McDonnell Daughter 6 Scholar Staffordshire

James Collins  Lodger  22   Labourer   Ireland
Edward Collins Lodger 17 Labourer Ireland

Hope this is of some help