Wigley of Camberwell

[MC]

 *COMPLETE* Looking for information on the birth of a George John or James Wigley born around 1793 at Camberwell.

His father was John Wigley mother unknown
thanks MC

[Tulip11]

Hi MC

Just read this post and your email. 

I think you and I are researching the same part of the tree.  Unfortunately, I seem to be experiencing technical difficulties, though probably because I am new to this website and am a restricted user, so don't seem to be able to respond directly to your email.

Am delighted to hear from you.  We do have heaps to talk about!!

Are you looking for George James or George John, and is the James you seek James Francis?  These are all my relations as is Cordelia Pryce Clunne. 

Please advise and I will try and sort out my technical problems so that communication will be easier!!

Tulip

[MC]

Hi Tulip

I just click on your name 'Tulip'  in the top left hand corner and I can send you a personal message. Do you login? Try clicking on MC and see if a note comes up saying you can send me a personal message. I had others use it and they went through OK and they were not a member.

It's a pity we can't speak personally, as there are a lot of things need pulling together - we need to get out heads together as I think we will hit a vein and find gold!

I was trying to find out two things - 1st, who was the mother of George John Wigley...(sometimes he was referred to as George James Wigley Lt 63 Regt) in the hope that her surname was familiar to me - and 2nd what, if any connection, there might have been between the Wigleys and Clunne families prior to Cordelia marrying John.

I am sure the parents of Cordelia and Thomas were from Wales...and Welshmen are going to want to mix with...Welshmen! If not the parents then certainly the grandparents...and I know where they were from.

And yes I am delighted in finding you too Tulip...I have always been fascinated with the name of Cordelia...tell me, if she ever had a daughter did she call her Alice?

Keep in touch
MC

[MC]

Oh dear!   
Tulip

After I sent off my last email to you, your personal email just popped up in front of me and I was astonished to see it, as it has never happened in this fashion before.

I replied, filling a long page with my story and sent it off, only to have everything freeze again. I finally had to restart my computer and I got into Rootschat via Google instead of my email.

I have a copy of the last email and will try to resend it again if not tonight then tomorrow.
Warm wishes MC

[Valda]

He seems consistently George James Wigley

GEORGE JAMES WIGLEY
ELIZABETH MARGARET DAVIES  
Marriage:  28 NOV 1827   Llanddewi Aberarth, Cardigan
Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church for the IGI so not taken directly from a parish register so should be treated as unchecked

GEORGIANA MAXWELL WIGLEY
Birth:  05 SEP 1828    
Christening:  03 OCT 1828   Saint Peter, Carmarthen, Carmarthen, Wales
Father:  JAMES WIGLEY  
Mother:  ELIZABETH  

ALBAN BEAUFOY HUGHES WIGLEY
Christening:  10 JUL 1833   Llandefeilog, Carmarthen, Wales
Father:  GEORGE JAMES WIGLEY  
Mother:  ELIZABETH MARGARET

1841 census HO107 1373/3 folio 5
Market Street Henfynyw Cardiganshire
George Wigley 45  Army H P not born Cardiganshire
Elizabeth Wigley 35 not born Cardiganshire  
Alban Wigley 8 not born Cardiganshire
Cordelia Wigley 65 Ind. not born Cardiganshire
one female servant
 
1851 census HO107 2484 folio 221
46 Pier Street Aberayron Cardiganshire
George James Wigley 58 Head Married Lieutenant Army Half Pay Camberwell Surrey  
Elizabeth Margaret Wigley 48 Wife Married Upton Grey Hampshire
Georgana Merrell Wigley 22 Daughter Carmarthenshire, Wales
Cordelia Wigley 78 Mother Widow Middlesex
two servants

Gentleman Magazine July 1858
Obituary
Elizabeth Margaret wife of George James Wigley esq., of Dolyaron, Aberayron, Cardiganshire

George James was a widower in Aberyron on the 1861 census.

Deaths Jun 1870  
Wigley  George James  78  Exeter  5b 82

The United Service Magazine by Arthur William Alsager Pollock 1870

Lieutenant George James Wigley, on half pay, 63rd Foot, died on April 4th at Exeter aged 78. He entered the service July 1808, became a lieutenant March 1810? and retired on half pay May 1819....


There are two Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills for Wigleys in Camberwell but you wouldn't expect a plumber and glazier to be closely connected to a Lieutenant and therefore a gentleman. There would have to be at least a generation difference if they were connected.

Will of John Wigley, Plumber and Glazier of Camberwell , Surrey 20 November 1800 PROB 11/1350

Will of Mary Wigley, Widow of Saint Giles Camberwell , Surrey 26 April 1810 PROB 11/1510


Regards

Valda

[MC]

Hi Valda

You have added a couple of new things there, and set it all up in an easy to read fashion, which is great, thank you, once again. 

Young Alban came to Australia.

I have never seen gentleman's magazine or 'United Service' before. No chance of Cordelia's brother Thomas being in one of them is there? He just disappeared after 1817, and by 1841 his wife Ann of Kent was a widow 'ind'.

I am assuming 'ind' meant of independent means...is that correct?

Curiously, the term 'gentleman' - does it come with the occupation, breeding or how much money one had?

A generation later, one of our referred to gentlemen was an accountant, who married the daughter of a Master butcher!

I've been told I should get a separate credit card with only a small about of credit on it to use for such things so I am looking into that.
MC

[Valda]

Hi MC

If you had an income that didn't require you to work no matter how small it might be that meant you could put 'independent' down on the census.

The information from the 'Gentleman's Magazine' etc you can see through the Google search on books - in the drop down menu 'more' on the top left of the Google page.

Thomas Pryce Clunne gave his ocupation as seaman on the baptism of his daughter Sarah in 1817 and a mariner on his son's baptism in 1813.

You can find the images of St George Gravesend baptism registers online

http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/

That sounds as if Thomas was in the merchant navy not the Royal Navy. The 1841 census does not give peoples' status so I'm not quite sure how you know from that source that Ann was a widow. The wife of a mariner would have far less chance of her husband being at home on census night. She would also have a greater risk of her husband dying abroad or at sea. Anyone dying at sea would be far less likely to have their death registered in the General Registry Office civil registration even if the death occurred after the start of civil registration 1st July 1837.

As Thomas was a mariner, even if he was a master mariner he was still working for his living so you wouldn't expect his death to have an entry in the 'Gentleman's Magazine'.


There is a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for John Pipler and possibly his widow Elizabeth.


Will of Elizabeth Pipler, Widow of Gravesend , Kent 20 April 1855 PROB 11/2210 
Will of John Pipler, Gentleman of Gravesend , Kent 04 February 1848 PROB 11/2069


Those wills may give further information for Ann Clunne nee Pipler.


Regards

Valda

[MC]

  I could cry Valda for trying to cut corners to save money, in regards to not buying the baptism certificates of the children of Thomas and Ann. Thank you for giving me this information - what an asset you are to Rootschat. A Seaman/Mariner!! It was the very last thing I though he would be. Now it all makes some sort of sense.

As for thinking that Ann was a widow in 1841, you are right of course, there is no mention of it. I assumed (what an ass) she was, because the Census said 'Indpt' and I thought that meant she was on some sort of pension or insurance, and thus probably a widow...plus the fact there were no other children born after 1817.

In my defense I did that work many moons ago when one had to send off to Utah and wait weeks for the reels to arrive in the Country...I certainly have been updated now.

Actually his daughter-in-law's nephew went down in a ship and I traced him down, but I had some idea of where that happened. Finding material on Thomas for this era in the Merch. Navy might not be as easy.

But I have made huge grounds with your help Valda and I am  very happy.
MC

 

[Valda]

Hi MC

It is more likely that she was a widow in 1841 but it isn't proved that she was. The National Archives have various research guides on merchant seamen but you are right it isn't so easy researching them.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp

Also have a read of the Death Duty registers research guide in regard to your wills. There is a limited electonic index to them on TNA website (which doesn't include PCC wills and only goes up to 1811) but again they can be a useful resource held at TNA.

'The registers in IR 26 between 1796 and 1903 include information not found elsewhere. They show what happened to someone's personal estate (not freehold) after death; and what it was actually worth, excluding debts and expenses. They can give the name of the deceased, with address and last occupation, the date of the will, the place and date of probate, the names, addresses and occupations of the executors, and details of estates, legacies, trustees, legatees, annuities and the duty paid. They can also give the date of death, and information about the people who received bequests (beneficiaries), or who were the next-of-kin, such as exact relationship to the deceased. Tax was not payable on bequests to people within a closely defined family circle, and as a result the family relationship was often noted in the registers. In 1796, tax was not payable on bequests to offspring, spouse, parents and grandparents. In 1805, the exemption was restricted to spouse and parents. From 1815, only bequests to the spouse were exempt from paying tax. Because the registers could be annotated for many years after the first entry, they can include information such as dates of death of spouse; dates of death or marriage of beneficiaries; births of posthumous children and grandchildren; change of address; references to law suits, cross references to other entries, etc. If any of the estate was left in trust before 1852, look at the Reversionary Registers as well. '


Regards

Valda