Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ

[Wiggy]

the Lady Nelson is that beautiful little square rigged boat in Hobart isn't it - original or repliqua?

[trish1120]

Hi Wiggy and David

Well how fascinating

As I live in Sydney, I will ring St Phillips Church in Sydney/Church of England Archives and see if It is possible to discover what is on the marriage record of Catherine and Bryan.

Cheers,
Trish

EDIT; just found the registers are available at the State Library, unfortunately it may take me some days to get in there.

[Wiggy]

David,  did you get my PM?   Hope so!

Yes Trish you are right - quite fascinating - I hadn't realized what a remarkable story was hidden in all the records!

Wiggy

[Wiggy]

Night thoughts!

Catharine's date of birth in IGI is 2 June 1790.  Yet her trial age is 23  in 1806  - these don't add up - I find some of the dates on IGI very suspect - also sus is the fact that Anne and Francis Stieglitz child Selina Ann was born in Ireland according to IGI - that is not correct I don't think - she lived in Tasmania I'm pretty sure.  Think I have the right generation - but will go back to search.

Another question - to which you may not know the answer - I have evidence from some historic buildings register that the Joiner's Arms belonging to old Thomas was in Macquarie Street - but I have a newspaper report granting a licence to Joiner's Arms Inn in Murray Street  - with a different licensee.   I suppose one could have closed, and the name taken by another.

forgotten the rest of my thoughts - I think very well when horizontal!

Wiggy

[davclem]

Good Morning All

Ok, lets try and answer those questions, and toss in some more tidbits

1 The link with Norfolk Island is Bryan- he was married to Catherine, and he evacuated Thomas from Norfolk Island. Catherine was not on Norfolk. I don't know how they all came together and how the relationship developed, except that Bryan would presumably have known Thomas from his trips there on the Lady Nelson  over the previous  years. He might have offered him lodgings in Sydney while he waited to go to Hobart. Bryan's life was changing at that time. He was in trouble with Macquarie,He and Catherine may have not been hitting it off, there was a child, Catherine may have taken the chance to go toHobart to muddy her convict trail. I don't know.

2 It is a replica at Hobart

3 Murray St and Macquarie St intersect, the pub was probably on the corner, hence the two addresses? It was also known as the Carpenters Arms in the 1818 Licensee records . I think Thomas sold out, before moving to Cross Marshes I've an auction notice somewhere, but in any event the owner of the pub is not necessarily the licensee

4  I think the 1790 IGI record is  a red herring- she was married to a Mc Nal(t)y, not born one. The old Bailey record indicates an older person, by direct statement and by the nature of the offence and her response. Witness describes her as a woman.The "I am as innocent" response really resonates as Irish as well! The discrepancy in date on gravestone? She was very good at blurring and hiding her past( the 1843 and 1848 Census records for Killymoon  record her as "free" ( not free by servitude, or in her case free by marriage!)). She doesn't appear in musters. I think she down aged herself to Frederick when he was courting, knocked  5-6 years off her age.

5 Haven't checked the local baptism records for Selina Ann, but no reason why she couldn't have been born in Ireland. Martin Cash autobiog states that Frederick was away from the colony in 1837 and was for 3 Years! Fred couldn't wait to leave after Catherine died in 1857 and go back to Ireland to marry Hesther Blackett and let his new mother in law buy him a Von. Brother Francis and Anne could have gone back to Henry and Charlotte in Ireland to introduce her to the family. Francis lived on "Lewis Hill" on the St Pauls River, near Avoca, named after the home of the Stieglitz  in Ireland

Have more , but apparently the rest exceeds permissable 5500 charcters, so will do it in 2 seperate posts

David

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[davclem]

6 the Norfolk Island mafia connection was reinforced when Sarah Stanfield , dau of Daniel Stanfield,Corporal of marines on Norfolk and subsequent beef baron of VDL, married young Thomas! She was killed Aug 9 1890 when her horse bolted on St Marys Pass and the carriage overturned.

7 Matthew Brady the making of a Bushranger, by Karl R Von Steiglitz ". "He arrived at Hobart Town four days after Christmas on the convict ship Juliana and was sent to work for Thhomas Ransom. Both Mr and Mrs ransom treated him very well and liked his happy nature and high spirits......" You have to wonder about Catherine's liking for convicts and bushrangers, well Thomas's as well-  "100 Australian Bushrangers 1789-1901 by Allan M Nixon " Obviously Brady had plentyof contacts...On 14 April 1825 Arthur issued a proclamationin which he offered 20 gallons of rum for the capture of Brady and McCabe. On 20 April Brady suddenly appeared at the Royal Oak Hotel at the Cross Marshs, fastened a notice to the doorway and gallopedoff again the locals were amazed to read ' It has caused matthew Brady much concern that such a person known as Sir george Arthur is at large. Twenty gallons of rum will be given to any person that will deliver this person unto me.i also caution John Priest that I will hang him for his ill-treatment of Mrs Blackwell at Newtown"   {attaboy, Matt}

8 Journal froma Journal of T Scott in the suite of his Excellency Lieut Col Governor Arthur during an excursion to the NW Quarter of VDJ 1829  "Jan 9th  Friday at 1pm His Excellency left Hobart Town . The day being wet and the roads heavy for travelling, the party reached Mrs Ransome's Inn at the Cross Marsh at 8 o'clock in the evening- 29miles from town" Thiswas the year Thomas died. The inn was called the Royal Oak, it still stands in much its original form.Cross Marsh is now called Kempton. As far as I can work out Thomas is actually buiried under the Midland Highway which passes over what was part of the cemetery at the time, but I am not sure!

9 Is the IGI record of a marriage of a Thomas Ransom to Elizabeth Durrell  8 June 1778 at St Leonards Shoreditch, our Thomas- don't know , except dates place and names fit, but that way lies madness!

10 The Aboriginal /Settler Clash in VDL 1803-1831 N J B Plomley

December 1827 Shannon River Mrs Ransome Hut plundered, tea, sugar, knives stolen
19 March 1828 Clyde River region Mrs ransome and 2 servants, came upon some natives making spears who fled when fired upon
11 Novemeber1828  Shannon  Mrs Ramsome Hut plundered
9 November 1830 Stieglitz  Dysart Parish Hut plundered

11 Diary of Robert William Von Stieglitz 1875-76
includes reminiscences of his time in VDL1833-36
"my brother Frederick lived 36 miles from Francis and I remember how delighted I was to see his house at Killymoon. One reason was he kept splendid horses and took delight in putting any young fellow on them so much the better if they ran away with them, but he did not care how much you knocked them about over logs and fences"  [I rest my case- the man was despicable DWC)

David

[Wiggy]

Good afternoon - I can't keep away from this saga!

Have you seen the References to Killymoon in the Tasmanian Motor News 1969 - I presume you would have   May have even written it!!  
Found the proceedings of the trial - am now looking for Thomas in same records.    Also found Mary Cavenaugh and Edward Kimberley in the musters - not the trials yet though.   Maria Kimberley wife of Daniel Stanfield.

 Re # 1  We heard in  another reference in the card index at Launceston Library,  that Thomas and another man were responsible for the evacuation of the last convicts from Norfolk Island aboard the ?Chapman? - there is so much which may have to be revised in my story!  Didn't realize that the Lady Nelson was involved also - not enough research by me!

Re # 3   The Inn was on the corner of Macquarie St Extension and Weld Street according to the piece I have on it.  still a mystery then!

Re # 4  Do you think Catharine might have 'borrowed a baby for the trial to substantiate the story that she was pregnant when arrested - long shot but trying it for size??    No, That doesn't gel if she had the baby with her on the boat though does it?   

Re # 6 - Having just driven up St Mary's pass I can see how easily one would be killed if a horse bolted there - I didn't go for it much myself!  Too steep for me, but beautiful scenery!      We knew of the marine's connection with the Stanfields and Norfolk Island - didn't get to Rokeby  - bad luck.

Re #7  We'd heard that Matthew Brady was made very welcome at the Royal Oak - first time I've heard the area called Cross Marsh though - Green Ponds in all other references - these things are not important - just interesting.

RE # 8  We looked in the graveyard at Kempton and wondered that a man of Thomas's standing didn't have a stone - your explanation makes a good case.

Re #9  There is a reference  from a book on the second fleet, ('The Second Fleet' - Britain's Infamous Armada - from the Mitchell Library in Sydney) or some such name - I have the reference somewhere nearby - that Thomas and his wife Elizabeth being both brought before the courts in England - together with his friend and his wife.  The wives got off the men were transported.  I haven't seen any marriage certificate - just the court reference from the book.   I'm grazing in the Old Bailey records for that!

Curiouser and curiouser as it says in Alice in Wonderland!

Fascinating news really David - I can hardly wait for my cousin to arrive home from England to share all this news with her!    We set out on this search together and have hit brick walls at every turn.  - it seems we didn't take enough turns!

Wiggy

[Wiggy]

Hmmm other references definitely say Murray Street for Joiner's Arms - so maybe the historic reference is wrong - It says the current 'Le Provencal Restaurant' in Hobart is the old Joiner's Arms.   Ref.  South Hobart - A brief History.

[regross]

Wiggy,

by now you should have found the trial and I referred to it back in an earlier post.
"« Reply #21 on: Monday 01 June 09 12:39 BST (UK) »" Date of trial was was 25th October 1786. Very interesting read.  You have to admit things were not very impartial at that time.

regards Robyn