Author Topic: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ  (Read 68094 times)

Offline davclem

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #45 on: Sunday 05 July 09 09:53 BST (UK) »
Hello Wiggy,

Yes it was wet! Pure serendipity that I came across your post- I haven't opened Catherine's file in two years! Planted a tree this morning, came in for coffee and just casually googled catherine for no reason.

I'm doing this from memory, not from my file, just to get the dialogue started and to stimulate your questions, then if necessary I can check what I have.

No, I'm not a descendant- moved here almost 30 years ago, am a local history buff, we lived for 7 years on the property next to Killymoon, and I sort of fell into researching Thomas and then of course Catherine, and the more I found,and it was not easy as you have found, the more facinating it became- their story is an epic of early Colonial history, from Old Bailey to government House, Governors and Bushrangers, it would make a great film, with Meryl Streep in her prime or Cate Blanchett as Catherine!

She claimed to be innocent at her trial in 1806, "as innocent as this babe at my breast", and she had a child with her on the Syndey Cove in 1807. No further trace of the child, She was however reported as having a child by Overhand in the NSW 1814 muster. No record in the 1811 muster as Overhand was away as captain of the Lady Nelson taking Gov Macquarie to VDL for his first tour. In the previous year theNSW Colonial Secretary's records are full of reports of aggro between Overhand and the commandant of Newcastle penal settlement, apparently over catherine , because Macquarie issued a special order for her to be removed from Newcastle and brought to Sydney, where she married Overhand (1810). My belief is that this child might have been Anne, but have no proof, and Catherine was a master(sic) at not being included in records. No other reference to Anne until her marriage, apart from the 1837 comment by bushranger Martin Cash in his "personal narrative" that the "missus" had an adopted daughter.

I don't like Stieglitz, and I think he was a money grubbing opportunist.  Go to http//images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au and search for stieglitz. He had to sell out to young Thomas when Catherine died, because Killymoon was old Tom's grant and had been left to Catherine in trust for young Tom. I think young Tom took the Ransom name because he wasn't a Stieglitz, didn't like his stepfather,  recognised that his inheritance derived from old Thomas, and wanted to lose his mother's origins for her.

You need to try and obtain a copy of "Martin Cash- his personal narrative as a bushranger in VDL' and check page 20 about his time at killymoon as a dairyman  in 1837. Also a wonderful description of Stieglitz chatting up Catherine in the Royal Oak in 1829, in "The Hermit in Van Diemens land"- I don't know whether it is online.

Bryan Overhand was dismissed as Captain of Lady Nelson in 1814 for helping convicts to abscond and signed on the Emu which sank in 1815 in Cape Town. A Captain Benjamin Ormond (same initials) started to arrive in Hobart 1817 and died in Parramatta 1824 aged 40. B aond BO never appeared in the records at the same time. Ormond was in Hobart in March 1820. My theory is that he made contact with Catherine and  had a one night stand with his wife,possibly even with knowledge of Thomas, (she never married Thomas), he died in 1824, she didn't know for a number of years until Thomas died, so was free to marry Stieglitz in 1829. Explains all, and keeps her respectable. No trace of Anne in all this though.

I have not yet found out about her pre 1806. Who was Michael McNalty, supposedly her husband, what was her maiden name, where was she born- was she Irish, and was she married to a  McNalty's from Armagh where Stieglitz was born (1803). I even theorised as well that Catherine was Thomas's daughter! So there are still plenty of unknowns.

Over to you

David





Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth,  born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820

Offline regross

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #46 on: Sunday 05 July 09 10:04 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Davclem:
What a wonderful synopsis. She must have been quite an intriguing woman, full of resource and character that I am sure all her descendants have inherited.

Of course one speculates on her early life  but researching it may well be impossible.
 

Wiggy Congratulations on cracking your brickwall.

regards

Robyn
The following families and their Australian decendents:
Abbott, Barnard, Clarke, Inward, Lanfear, Rutter,Spencer:Middlesex
Greenaway:Cornwall
Edney, Godwin/Goodwin, Gullett:Hampshire;
Gullett:Devon
Emms:39th Regiment of Foot 1810-1832
Gordon:Scotland
Arnold, Morton:Ireland
Davies:Wales
Olcorn:Cumberland
Osborne:Staffordshire
Harrington:Kent
&
Gross: Tullau Wurtmemburg Germany

Offline Wiggy

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McNally Catharine Christina
« Reply #47 on: Sunday 05 July 09 10:54 BST (UK) »
Yes, it sure is fascinating You've opened a can of worms and it is all very entertaining!   - - - - but if Rupert Murdoch can have children well into his 70s why can't Thomas??   :D ::)  

 I want to read all those reports of aggro now!   :D    Oh how I wish I'd know about you, just down the road as we drove past!!   ;)

We don't like Von Stieglitz either because the family tale is that he 'stole the family money' to build Killymoon. Is Tyrone in County Armagh - we have Fred. being born in Tyrone - but I thought that meant County Tyrone.
 I presume you have seen Thomas Snr's will, where he leaves everything to Catharine (spelt like that in his will) then, at her demise to Thomas.  (Nothing of Killymoon there 'Fred.' built it) - - He was to inherit the Royal Oak and Joiner's Arms, and all the land and rents belonging to them.  Then we read somewhere, can't remember where, that Thomas Jnr had to buy Killymoon for 30,000 pounds -( and where a post office employee would have that sort of money from is anyone's guess.)   Unless his wife's family came to the party!
How did you find out all that about the husbands - two!!  She was only 17 when she was transported - how would she have had time to have two husbands??   Fast worker - but you say she wasn't flighty!!   And where did you find out the info re the captains and her marriage - I am not doubting you - just really, really interested!   :)    And the trial reports?   I really must get into this more!   Was Catharine listed under her married name when she came to Tasmania?  Why, then, was she always referred to as Catharine/Christina McNally or Mrs/ Widow Ransom after Thomas's death - we knew they'd never married just thought they had a full on de-facto relationship - which is why Thomas had to give up as Licensee of the Joiner's Arm's Inn (he was living in sin - quel horreur)    And,   when did she go to Norfolk Island? because you said she arrived from Norfolk Island with Thomas.

Anne's last child was born in 1860 so if she'd been born pre 1814 she would have been pretty old to have been still childbearing, at 46+. That's old in those days isn't it???    Alright for the blokes - not so good for the women!!   ;)   I don't have Anne's marriage certificate - just lists of her many children, and her death - and she would have been about 78.  Do you have evidence of her birth in Sydney.  I must get back to the libraries and look at the indexes again!  The people in Hobart and Launceston were very helpful - but I didn't have enough time at either.   Melbourne is closer!  

Too many questions - but I am oh so glad to finally find someone who knows something - I knew there must be someone out there who knew a bit about Catharine/Christina.

Thank you so much for sharing what you have - I look forward to the next installment - meantime I will go looking for those references you've suggested.

Wiggy
Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania)
Brown, Johnstone, Eskdale, Brand  (Dumfriesshire,  Scotland)
Booth, Bruerton, Deakin, Wilkes, Kimberley
(Warwicks, Staffords)
Gaunt (Yorks)
Percy, Dunning, Hyne, Grigg, Farley (Devon, UK)
Duncan (Fife, Devon), Hugh, Blee (Cornwall)
Green, Mansfield, (Herts)
Cavenaugh, Ransom (Middlesex)
 

 Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.

Offline Wiggy

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #48 on: Sunday 05 July 09 10:55 BST (UK) »
Robyn - not sure I've done the cracking - but it is very exciting to have made contact with David!   Reckon the cracking goes to David!
Wiggy     :D
Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania)
Brown, Johnstone, Eskdale, Brand  (Dumfriesshire,  Scotland)
Booth, Bruerton, Deakin, Wilkes, Kimberley
(Warwicks, Staffords)
Gaunt (Yorks)
Percy, Dunning, Hyne, Grigg, Farley (Devon, UK)
Duncan (Fife, Devon), Hugh, Blee (Cornwall)
Green, Mansfield, (Herts)
Cavenaugh, Ransom (Middlesex)
 

 Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.


Offline davclem

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #49 on: Sunday 05 July 09 11:29 BST (UK) »
Wiggy,

I will just refresh myself on some of the sources and let you know in half an hour or so- but you will pick up her marriage 1810 to Bryan Overend on the IGI - search Catherine McNalty  under South Pacific

David
Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth,  born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820

Offline Wiggy

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #50 on: Sunday 05 July 09 11:50 BST (UK) »
I have seen that photo of Frederick - and also the entry in Aust Dict of Biog re him too - have you seen that? 

Don't suppose you happen if there are any photos of either Catharine or Thomas Snr do you? - or even Thomas Jnr - who is the one you started researching all those years ago!   

Wiggy


Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania)
Brown, Johnstone, Eskdale, Brand  (Dumfriesshire,  Scotland)
Booth, Bruerton, Deakin, Wilkes, Kimberley
(Warwicks, Staffords)
Gaunt (Yorks)
Percy, Dunning, Hyne, Grigg, Farley (Devon, UK)
Duncan (Fife, Devon), Hugh, Blee (Cornwall)
Green, Mansfield, (Herts)
Cavenaugh, Ransom (Middlesex)
 

 Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.

Offline davclem

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #51 on: Sunday 05 July 09 12:12 BST (UK) »
Wiggy,

Here we go for starters

1 Google " INDEX TO NSW COLONIL SECRETARYS PAPERS 1788-1825"
 click on website URL that comes up
Click on "search and browse..."
Click on 'O"
Scroll down from Ovens John until you come to'Overhand, Bryan"
then read

ditto ORMAN Benjamin

ditto mcanulty
ditto McNally

2IGI at www.familysearch.org
search "Stieglitz, Ireland", will bring up 19 entries,all Freds family NB his sister was called Christina-

3 www.oldbaileyonline.org
Search for Catherine Macnalty 1806, and that will bring up trial report- Age 23

No she never went to Norfolk Island- Thomas did. She was sent to Newcastle , the lime kilns!


David
Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth,  born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820

Offline davclem

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #52 on: Sunday 05 July 09 12:17 BST (UK) »
Wiggy,

Yes,I have a photo of Catherine, very severe, sad, Victorian black silk dress . I am not IT ept, so will have to get a copy made for you, also have one of young Tom, when he has become old Tom himself, on a bycycle- I like him! Will copy.
My email is

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if you are willing to give me your address , I can post it to you, but it will take two or three weeks, as i will have to go into Launceston

David
Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth,  born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820

Offline Wiggy

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Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #53 on: Sunday 05 July 09 12:40 BST (UK) »
In reply 42 you said she came with Thomas from Norfolk Island - or did you mean she arrived in Hobart at the same time???   I'm confused.

I reckon she was confused too.  Have you seen young Thomas's baptism record?  It says Catharine was unmarried. 
The old Bailey record would suggest that she was older than the 68 years that her gravestone says.

She is written up as Christianna on her marriage record - but she has signed herself as Christina.  She is one tricky lady.   In Old Thom,as's Will she is Catharine Christiana.

Right I'm off to look up those sites you've suggested.

 ;)   Wiggy
Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania)
Brown, Johnstone, Eskdale, Brand  (Dumfriesshire,  Scotland)
Booth, Bruerton, Deakin, Wilkes, Kimberley
(Warwicks, Staffords)
Gaunt (Yorks)
Percy, Dunning, Hyne, Grigg, Farley (Devon, UK)
Duncan (Fife, Devon), Hugh, Blee (Cornwall)
Green, Mansfield, (Herts)
Cavenaugh, Ransom (Middlesex)
 

 Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.