Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ

[Wiggy]

Well that is very interesting - we'll have to do a very big rethink!

Thank you for that.    We found John and Ann's marriage in 1805 wasn't it - in Hampshire - the rest was just trying to work out who was where and when!    Did you Cummings live in Hobart then?  We noticed there was a family of them on the south of the island.   - - -    Curious - - -  But we did find Anne's drowning from the papers of the time.

[Wiggy]

Just thought -  the notice we found in the Sydney paper said they were returning to VDL in 1816 - that is what made us think it was the same family.   Certainly we had all the children's names right - with John George being the eldest and Ellen,  and Phillip born in 1818 - correct??  And another boy - James was it?

Wiggy

[Cathy48]

Does the newspaper article mention the childrens names? In that case it could be them, I have records of dealings in VDL up until 1812 but then not again until 1818, so that may be right. John (George) was born in England in 1805, James (My ancestor) was born at sea in 1808, Ellen (Who went on to marry a convict) was born in Sydney in 1809 and Phillip was born in VDL in 1818. We have often wondered about Phillip, but I have his marriage certificate which names Captain John Cummings of the 102nd regiment as his father.

[davclem]

Cathy,

AS Wiggy said, the focus of the thread has been to find the origins of Catherine McNally, but I have become severely sidetracked by Capt John Cummings ( haven't I, Wiggy). I have Capt John Cummings attempting to burn down the Kings bench Prison,, Capt John Cummings and brother William in the NSW Corps and involved in the Vinegar Hill rebellion, and Bligh's arrest, Capt John Cummings in the West India Regiment in Dominica, Col Cummings with son John in Madras, John Cummings in the Colonial Secretarys Index, in the Historical Records of Australia, William and wife Ann Oates who died c 1810, I am awash with John Cummingses, all called John and in one military capacity or another! From your comments it is obvious  that your family is connected to our search, but we have not been able to correlate all the information we have gathered.

Can you help by clarifying your  Cummings family tree and movements between ,say, 1760-1830, then we can see what of our research appears relevant and what is just a coincidence of name and place. Welcome to the thread- Be warned,  Wiggy has the capacity to get people involved!

Hope you don't mind me poking about in your family history, but "Capt Cummings" is almost a cult figure in the Catherine McNally search.

David

 

[davclem]

Cathy, You may be interested in the following reference in Historic Records of Australia
Source;HRA3 Vol 4 pg 625

Captain Montagu to Colonial Secretary Goulburn

Secretary’s Office, Hobart Town  12th November 1825

Sir, I am directed to have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of 18th September last,with its enclosure requesting a Certificate of the Death of Mrs Cummings, the Wife of Lieutenant
Cummings of the 102nd Regiment, and which I herewith inclose,together with a Copy of a Letter which I have received from the Reverend John Youl, Chaplain of Launceston , on the subject.

I have, Sir, etc JOHN MONTAGU, Secretary

Enclosure No 1
Reverend John Youl to Lieut-Governor Arthur
Launceston 31st October 1825
Sir,
I have the honour to report further particulars relative to a Mrs Cummins as to the time of her demise. Having seen Mr John Cummins, late a Captain in the MSW Corps, his deceased wife’s name previous to her marriage , was Ann Boynton, born at Nottingham, was married to Captain John Cummins in a Church near Gosport. She has left 3 children by her marriage, not well provided for.
From the date the Lady died , as stated in the Right Honourable Earl Bathurst’s Letter, I am of the opinion that it must have reference to  the wife of Lieutenant William Cummins, lately deceased who was in the same Corps, and who came into the colony some time before the arrival of captain John Cummins. His wife’s name previous  to her  marriage , was Ann Oates, daughter of a respectable family. She was born in the isle Of Man. Her death is as far back as 1810, or thereabouts. There are several persons at Port Jackson who are likely to give the time of her decease, particularly the following- Mrs Broughton of Appin, Mr Hume of the same place, and Mr Kennedy of Windsor
I am etc,  John Youl

Enclosure No 2
CERTIFICATE OF DEATH  OF ANN CUMMINGS Nee BOYNTON
Page No 3
Ann Cummins , Wife of Mr John Cummins of Paterson’s Plains was Drowned July the 27th, Aged 38 Years, was Buried  at Launceston, July 29th 1825
By Me, John Youl, Chaplain

[Cathy48]

Hi David,

Mary Ann Oates was Cpt John Cummings (Jnr) sister in law. Briefly, the relationships of this Cummings family in the time frame that interests you:
Captain John Cummings Senior of the 8th West Indian regiment b about 1743, buried in Hobart on 26th March 1825. His son William Cummings arrived on the third fleet in 1791 on the ship 'Queen" on which he was an ensign. He married Mary Ann Oates who was also on board. They had one known son James John who was christened in 1788 on the Isle of Mann. It is not known if this son came to Australia. Mary Ann's burial is recorded at St Phillips church, Sydney as having taken place on 29th August 1811. A death of William Cummings in Sydney in 1824 appears as if it is this William Cummings.
Captain John's younger son Cpt John Cummings Jnr - arrived in 1808 as previously stated. He married Ann Boyton in Hampshire on 27th Oct 1805, and had the children described previously. He was an officer with th 102nd Regiment and there is a letter in existence written by Bligh describing him in an unfavourable way. The 1819 muster of land holders at Port Dalrymple shows that John Cummings had 200 acres and a wife and three children,  listing the names of the elder three. John Cummings Jnr's death & burial were unknown by family members when I last researched this, but he was known to be alive and living in Tas in 1834. The three male children all moved to Victoria where they married. The daughter Ellen married convict George Richards and stayed in Tasmania.
The letters you posted are very interesting - I'm not sure about the burial date in the letter, I have an extract from the pioneers index as follows: Ann Cummins (sic) Sex-Female Spouse name- John Aged 38 Event- buried on 29 JUL 1820 Reg place Launceston Reg details 1820/460/34
I would love to have details of the newspaper article describing their return to VDL.
Cathy

[Wiggy]

Hi Cathy,

I think the death date for Anne was a typo - you are right, definitely should have been 1820!   

The ad you wanted to see is at reply no 131 on this thread - it doesn't mention children's names - think that was a later muster where they were mentioned.

Your comment re the doubts about Phillip are interesting.   We are looking for a missing registration of a child born about that year - but ours is a girl - odd though, that you had doubts about a child born at about the same time.   You say you have the registration of his marriage though.   I found his birth year through the IGI.
It is interesting that the letter quoted by David says 'three children, not well provided for'   Yet there were apparently four children.   Also you say that the 1819 muster shows only 3 children - all very worthy of further investigation.

Wiggy

[davclem]

Cathy,
Thanks for the background,which is highly interesting and which I am absorbing. I'm  glad that all my researching on the 8th in West Indies Regiment is relevant.

Wiggy found Captain John Cummings trying to burn down the Kings Bench Prison in 1793- same man, John sen? Google "Navarre Complete Newgate Calender" and search for Cummings in the General Index.

Just a frivolous note-my grandson has in his ancestry ( through his mothers line) the Lieutenant Governor of the Isle of Man (Smelt) and also  the Bishop of Man and Sodor(Crigan) at about(must check) the time James John was baptised there in 1788. This RootsChat is just one big family

Cheers,
David

[davclem]

Wiggy,

Cathy has made contact because of her connection to John Cummings which reference has obviously spiralled off through cyberspace from this thread.How about we scream THOMAS S AMOS solictor Sydney 1816-1819, and also scream LEO STIEGLITZ Re Thomas Amos and Ann Ransom Killymoon- perhaps Leo might hear us and make contact- we need to contact you , Leo.

David