Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ

[Wiggy]

Can you see if Anne was at home with Francis on census night?    - that would narrow the options!

This is just an interesting side track isn't it? -  wondering who she was visiting.  Gone to town to buy a ball gown for some rout?   Replenish the larder?     
 I've just checked the other family members who lived in Launceston - but they are all next generation grandchildren.   Fascinating getting the fuller and fuller picture of her life.

Wiggy

[Wiggy]

 Hi Julie,

Just been re-reading your two transcriptions - at the end of the second one, you quote a bit from CC McNally sworn in Jan 1829 - and the rest is Aug 1829 - but the offence took place in 1826 - I find it interesting that, even in those days, the law moved so slowly -   it beats me how anyone can remember a conversation for two years.

Specially when it wasn't a huge offence one wouldn't have thought.   I look forward to reading what happened!   Have you got to who was bringing the charges - and for what exactly?     Going back to read again in case I've missed something - and if I have, don't answer this!!        So Thomas was still alive and in his right mind when Catharine was swearing to things in Jan 1829. - just realized - he only made his will 6 days before he died.  Close shave!

Wiggy

[Wiggy]

I've been thinking about Catharine - again!!

When I started on this search I was armed with a family story - as most of us are!     So far that story has held up - the good bits and the bad bits.

Catharine does not at any stage rate a mention as 'may have been a convict'.  That doesn't prove anything - but I find it telling in that:
1. we knew Thomas was,
2. we knew they weren't married,
3. we knew Thomas lost his Inn licence because of it,
4. we knew the children were born out of wedlock

If all these things were known, why wouldn't something as 'ordinary' (for the times) as Catharine being a convict - why wouldn't that have been known??       Free settlers were able to slip in to the colony much more easily than convicts!  There are children of marines and of free settlers etc etc - there are un-named passengers on ships etc etc.     SO . . .I'm looking for a free woman!     I think!   

Anyone care to comment on that thinking - anyone know of any stray free women around?   

Wiggy       

[davclem]

Whoa Wiggy,

Thomas didn't lose his licence because he was a convict, it was because Arthur didn't like Thomas and Catherine not being married.

The "children" born out of wedlock? only young Thomas is proved as Catherine's child , Anne was described  by Martin Cash as "adopted", and he was part of the Killymoon household for a year as a dairyman

David

[VDLstories]

hi

Here below is reason for the case - libel 

 meanwhile can you let me know who Christian McNally was - who called the inn his? did Catharine/Christiana marry him after Ransom's death?  - see his [previously posted] statement. I am confused!

I will post dates next

Julie


THOMAS G GREGSON   v  WILLIAM PATON

undated [Dec? 1828?]
In the Supreme Court
Between Thomas George Gregson Plaintiff and
William Paton defendant
Thomas George Gregson of Jericho in Van Diemen’s land Esquire the above named Plaintiff maketh oath and saith that he hath been informed and very believes that the above named Defendant sometime in or about the month of October last spoke and uttered certain and slanderous words of and concerning the Defendant in his character of a Magistrate of the colony to the purport and effect following that is to say “That Mr Gregson had been requested by Mr Gage to attend an investigation respecting the robbery of W Anstey’s  sheep of which a Mr Owen of Bagdad was in part accused that W Gregson neglected to attend the two first appointments made by Mr Gage but did attend on a third occasion where a court was held at Ransoms and that during the trial an evident bias in favor of Owen was perceptible on the part of W Gregson – after the proceedings were closed Mr Gregson proposed to have tea and that Mrs Owen should make it for  him. Mrs Ransom require to enter the room in which Mrs Owen and Mr Gregson were taking tea but before she entered she looked through the key hole and observed Mr Gregson with his arm round Mrs Owens neck. they were sitting on the sofa a short time afterwards Mr Gregson intimated that as it was a dark night he intended to remainat Ransom’s Inn all night upon which Mrs Ransom observed that she had known Mr Gregson ride home in much darker nights. Mr Gregson however was determined to remain and further informed Mrs Ransom it would only be requisite to provide one bed as Mrs Ovens and himself intended to sleep together- Mrs Ransom objected to this arrangement saying that she would not convert her house into a bawdy house and that Mrs Owens should quit the house Mrs Owens did so accordingly upon which Mr Gregson also left the inn and it was supposed had passed the night with Mrs Owens in the Bush. That W Gregson had induced Mrs Owens to quit the country for England in order that Mrs Owens might not be brought against him in evidence. And this deponent further saith that the charges so made against the character of this Deponent as such magistrate as aforesaid are wholly untrue and for which words his action is brought.
Thomas G Gregson  [signed}
Sworn by
By the county
M Kennedy

[VDLstories]

Oct 1826 the purported [overwhelmingly likely] incident takes place at Ransom’s  Inn

Late 1826 William Paton was told the story by Charles George Hardwicke while on the road with him  

Oct/Nov1827  W Paton told David Gray the story

Dec 1827 David Gray told Joseph Archer of Pansanger  and Horace Rowcroft.

17 Feb 1828  Archer told Gregson  

17 Feb 1828  Paton and Gregson fight fierce  "fisticuffs” in yard of W Lyttleton near Longford/Perth - when they accidently meet Paton at Lyttleton's !!

13 April 1828 Peter Harrison (signed) Jericho  statement prewritten by Gregson!

18 April 1828 Horace Rowcroft   sworn  affadavit, before   Josiah Spode JP

28th  July 1828 Paton and Gregson appointed arbitrators
James Cox Esq JP [Gregson ] and William Paton  [Patrick Wood]

11 Aug 1828 Robert Pitcairn to William Paton about the court case

17th Dec 1828 Hobart Town
Henry Jennings Attorney for W Gregson
Robert Pitcairn Attorney for Dr Paton
We hereby appoint William Lyttleton of the Lake River Esquire as umpire in the matter within referred WB Lawrence  W Weston

2nd January 1829 Christian McNally sworn before B?  Horn  JP about incident in his inn…  

Jan 6 1829
witness Henry Jennings   Thos GW Gregson
witness Alfred Stephen  William Paton  
W Weston

29 Jan 1829 The examination of David Gray esq sworn before PA Mulgrave esq JP

29 Jan 1829 The examination of William Archer esq after being sworn before PA Mulgrave Esq

29 Jan 1829 Gregson v Paton
Agreement for compromise

6 Feb 1829 Thomas Ransom died   ??

20th of April 1829 Peter Harrison (signed revised affadavit) Jericho later Sworn before me at Jericho this  R  Horn JP

20th day of August 1829 CC Mc Nally swears to  H Simpson (Mrs Ransom)

28th day of August 1829 John Oxley? Gage (signed) Old  Beach sworn before   Thos Lascelles PM

August the 28 th 1829 Thomas George Gregson Sworn before Thomas Lascelles

29 Aug 1829  Peter Harrisson revised statement to Thos Anstey
at Anstey Barton

29 August 1829 Henry Clayton statement Norfolk Plains

1 Sept 1829 The examination of Mr Charles Brown Hardwicke after being sworn before James Gordon Esq

29 Sept 1829 The examination of Joseph Archer esq sworn before PA Mulgrave Esq

1 June 1830

Arbitration
between Messrs Gregson and Paton
The Arbitrators in the above case, having already decided that the contending parties have each sustained “an equal degree of injury” and “equality of suffering” and merely differ, as to the division of the expenses and costs, of the several actions incurred by the parties against each other.
I do hereby as Umpire in the above case, award, adjudge, and determine, the the whole of the expenses, charges, and costs, of ever description whatsoever, relating to this matter, shall be equally defrayed and borne, by mssrs Gregson and Paton shall share and share alike, and that all further proceedings in the above matter, shall cease.
W Lyttleton Launceston

WE Lawrence
WP Weston
Esqs

[davclem]

Julie,

That is truly awesome-my head is reeling .Mighty research

David

[Wiggy]

Thanks Julie!  Wow 

To answer your questions


Catharine Christina McNally was my GGGgrandmother and defacto wife of Thomas Ransom, though many years- about 48 -  his junior.     She seems to have been known as Christina.

The Inn was Thomas Ransom's - he left it to Christina in his Will - so it was hers when she was swearing these oaths!  ( Sorry - just realized - the 'His' Inn licence refers to the licence Thomas held for the Joiner's Arms in Hobart - after he lost that licence, because someone 'snitched' he and Christina weren't married, he moved out to his property at Green Ponds and built the Royal Oak for which he gained a licence.   That better?)


Christina married Frederick Von Stieglitz after Thomas's death - in 1830 - and after some years still at the Royal Oak Inn with Frederick, went to live at Killymoon in the Fingal region where Fred. had built the mansion. ( Just for a change, she was about 13 years older that Fred! - according to family history!)        Simple really - NOT.   

David,

The 'it' referred to (in dot point 3/reply 110) was the fact that they weren't married - see dot point 2.!  Sorry I should have made that clearer - but known none the less!

The 'adopted daughter'  as described by Martin cash 'appeared to be younger' so may possibly not have been Anne.

 Anne's age seems probably right for about 1817 given her marriage  -  she is not referred to by name by Cash, so not necessarily Anne!   Mind you, can't think who the adopted daughter is - still working on that one - I need four heads for this! 

Also David, I think you are arguing my side of the debate when you say that having convict relatives means you know all about them!!  'cos we know very little about Catharine!   


Smiles all round     Wiggy

[VDLstories]

Thanks to you both

I am embarassed because I just relaised that I must have transcribed wrongly 'Christian' McNally instead of Christina McNally for 2 Jan 1829 deposition. I will double check this! I thought there were two McNallys in Ransom's Inn with such different depositions:  2 Jan 1829 she   stated nothing remiss happened there:

(repeated from earlier)
The examination of Christina McNally who states
I live at the Royal Oak Public House Green Ponds
I remember Mr Gage and Mr Gregson meeting there about some Magisterial Business.
Mrs Owen who present on the occasion. I never saw Mrs Owen and Mr Gregson alone in any room with his arm around Mrs Owen nor did I ever see him use the slightest freedom with her.
I never turned Mrs Owen out of my house.
Mr Gregson and Mrs Owen never met at my house but on the occasion I speak of.
Mr Gregson and Mrs Owen never had tea together at my house nor any other refreshment whatever.
Christina McNally
Sworn before me this 2nd January 1829
B?  Horn/e  JP (Horne of Chiswick? or Hone?)


 BUT  the on Aug 1829 she said it was dodgy! phew....  Gregson was very powerful though I think.

“Mr Gage and Mr Gregson were at the Royal Oak Inn on Magisterial Business one day when Mrs Owen of Swan Inn was here – the only day she … ?  was here – between 11 – 12 o clock at night. I was sitting in company with Mr Harrison, Jun, Keeper at Jericho and Mrs Owen. Mr Harrison remarked that he wished he could get Mr Gregson to come home, meaning as I understood to Jericho. Mrs Owen immediately observed that Mr Gregson was not going home that night, and he betted five shillings that he would not go home. Its done said she – and Mr Harrison immediately got up and walked into the room where Mr Gregson was – I do not know what passed but he instantly returned and paid the 5 shillings to Mrs Owen saying I have lost it – she took the money and gave me four shillings for him to her own servants. Very soon after I went up stairs – Mr Gregson followed me up and into the bedroom where I was and asked me where Mrs Owen was to sleep – I asked him, what is that to you? he said 0 but tell me for I want to know. Well if you want to know, said I,  she sleeps with me – Let me know said he – for I have her permission – indeed said I, but you don’t sleep here with her I assure you. I would not allow such a thing in my house for the best fifty pounds you can had for I am above it – and if I caught you and her at any things improper in my house I would have pitched you both down stairs – with that I left the room and came down stairs. Mr Ransom who is now dead remarked on my coming into the room that I paid Mrs Owen who was sitting there no attention – I had better give her a little wine – and I exclaimed in her hearing curse? such women they are a disgrace to their sex – she instantly rose ordered her cart and went out – I saw Mr Gregson stand beside the cart as she left in the cart. When Mr Harrison laid the wagon with Mrs Owen, he said that he had no other business but to see Mr Gregson home as Mrs Gregson expected to be confined any hour.
My distinct impression was that Mr Gregson was in earnest in his proposal.
Sworn before me by way of affidavit this 20th day of August 1829
H Simpson
CC Mc Nally "

This explains to me why Christina was giving a deposition on 2 Jan 1829 as CC McNally   when I thought she was called Mrs Ransom (was  this common use of   Ransom's Inn and Mrs Ransom's Inn  ironical - because surely everyone knew they weren't married?). I was confused but now realise there was Mc Nally and Ransom running the same inn.

Lots more to find out! I am transcribing 100s pages of vdl depositions for online publication - it is addicitive to read and type them!

 what other VDL names are you both interested in?
Julie