Fromelles missing - William Wass

[majm]

Hi there,

Clearly, from his AIF records, the German authorities recovered his Identification Disc at Fromelles.  The link for his fully digitised AIF service records is : http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=8375341

The German authorities document is at page 14 of 21.  That document notes that on 2 August 1916 the German authorities recorded that Sgt Wass was among the Fallen of the Australian Soldiers who fell on 19 July 1916.  That's around a fortnight after that battle for the German HQ at Berlin to receive and identify that disc, and as we all realise, there would have been many discs at that time.

I have not seen any evidence to contradict where Sgt Wass fell, and I have found much to support the record that Sgt Wass fell at Fromelles.

LEST WE FORGET 

[Auimfo]

Sorry Howard but the list you are referring to is massively incomplete and obviously well out of date.   William WASS most certainly IS on the list of those thought to have been buried at Pheasant Wood and has been on it for quite some time.

He is one of those men who almost certainly is now in the Pheasant Wood Cemetery.

At this stage no soldier has ever been excluded from potentially being on the list and the basic theory utilised still remains that it's far better to be inclusive rather than exclusive.   The only soldiers not considered for the list are those with known graves unless a fair case can be shown that there burial is questionable.   Indeed, in the past twelve months, we have suggested five soldiers with 'named' graves be included as possibles and the Australian Fromelles Project Group were quite obliging and willing to accept them.

Cheers,
Tim L.

[Tjapaltjarri]

Thanks Tim,

Yes I am aware that that list is not comprehensive. As I said, it was one of the stgarting points.

The other point I was making  was that where there is a clear mDNA relative match for a fallen soldier and no match to the mDNA extracted amongst the fallen then it should be possible to rule them out.

If there are some of the fallen from whom no DNA was extracted that was suitable for matching purposes then I accept that the situation becomes more complex and nobody can be ruled in or out but without access to the results of the DNA results it is hard to know exactly where that leaves us in terms of the identification possibilities.

I perhaps have been mistaken in believing that the list of priority persons sought for DNA matching purposes would  include all those soldiers possibly amongst the 'grave unknown' group, including those solely commemorated on the Villers-Bretonneux Memorial but involved with the Battle at Fromelles.

Since I had earlier identified an m-DNA relative of Wass on Genes Reunited and no longer saw any request for suitable DNA matches for Wass being sought I assumed that this person had been identified, contacted and had supplied a sample.

If this was an incorrect assumption then I apologise but some clarity as to what needs still to be done regarding the identification of the remaining fallen at Fromelles would be helpful.

I have looked at the VC Corner list and compiled a data base of these linking them to the aif.adfa.edu.au:8080 database. the link for Wass is http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=314645

This shows that quite a substantial proprtion of the soldiers were born outside of Australia. including Belgium 1, Canada 1, Channel Islands 1, Denmark 2, England 140, India 3, Ireland 13, Malaya 1, NZ 15, Netherlands 1, Poland 1, Russia 1, Scotland 40, South Africa 3, Sweden 2, Switzerland 2, USA 2, Wales 4 - 97 on my list have place of birth unstated.( I have one alias duplicated that I have yet to hunt down ;-))

Still trying to help,

Best,

Howard

[majm]

Hi there,

I wonder if the CURRENT discussion on this specific thread would be best served on a separate thread, afterall, this thread along with several other threads were given the topic "Fromelles missing .......(then the AIF soldier's name).  I don't see any benefit in this current discussion continuing on this specific thread. 

LEST WE FORGET   

[Auimfo]

Agree totally with starting a specific thread.   Perhaps a few of these last posts could be transposed into it at the beginning so the train of thought isn't lost. (is that possible?)   

It's a discussion that's well worth having and there are some valid points that Howard has brought up that I've also beenquestioning over the past few weeks. 

In answer to your last post Howard,

Yes, there was a very small number of remains from whom no DNA sample was able to be extracted.   Therefore it leaves us with the open-ended possibility of them being anyone who went missing during the battle and thus no soldier can be ruled out whether an mtDNA match was successful or not.

Re: Wass.   Although you have identified an mtDNA descendant, do you know whether that person registered with the AFPG?   The frustrating thing about this is that it is up to the relative to approach them and offer their DNA rather than the other way around.

You are correct, those without known graves do form a 'priority' type list but it's been shown that it's not exclusive as some with graves have now been proven incorrectly named (although I'd like to think that's only small in number).   Indeed those listed on the Villers Bret Memorial were taken into consideration from the outset.   It was realised early on that they only appeared at VB because of a records technicality that listed their date of death the day 'after' the battle.   We suspect the reason for this is because that particular battalion called the roll on the following day and all those found missing were nominally alloted that date.   Hence they missed out on being included at VC Corner.

I am currently attempting to obtain a list of soldiers names from the AFPG for whom DNA has been submitted as this doesn't breach any privacy issues.   Obviously I couldn't ask for the names of descendants who had submitted it.   I'll let you know if/when I obtain it.

Cheers,
Tim L.

[Tjapaltjarri]

Re: a new thread - Yes I am happy with that. I intended to start one elsewhere under the title of the future of identifications of the AIF fallen at Fromelles but was waiting for what I felt was a dignified gap after the Fromelles Memorial ceremony in July.

Re: Wass - no I didn't contact the relatives that I identified directly myself. I simply pointed to where they could be found and left it to the Australian genealogy brigades to follow up since I found that I'd 'painted myself into a corner' as far as communications with other members in this forum was concerned at that time. - There is still time to follow up this potential contact although none of us is getting any younger.

So far as I remember from a posting by Sandra, useful DNA for identification purposes was found for all the soldiers identified as being from the AIF.

It's an interesting starting point from which to address the complexity of modern history and its interpretation. Best of luck with your project <3mle.

Howard

[fedelmar]

Howard,
All but 6 sets of remains produced viable DNA.

Bright Blessings
Sandra

[Tjapaltjarri]

I've taken on board all of Tim's recent comments and turned my attention to the 3 other AIF Fallen who have not been identified indivcidually and for whom I believed I had traced and located a person who could assist with the identification process.

When I came to look at William Wasss; horror of horrors the tree which had so clearly spelled out such a line had been amended and no longer pointed to his sister Lizzie Wass but another.

So I've rolled my sleeves up and I believe found another MtDNA lineage from his older sister Eliza Wass b ca 1870 at Wirksworth.

She married William (Willie on the 1891 census) Bickerton and in 1901 census was living in Derby with family and her brother George Wass born Windley who was then working as a fireman/stoker on a railway engine.

The family are together withput George on the 1911 census and amongst her children is a daughter Florrie b ca 1904. The only match for Florrie is Florence Bickerton b Dec qtr 1903 in Derby.

It seems that Florence Bickerton married Frederick Dakin in Derby in 1929. Their only child Patricia Jill Dakin was born 11 June 1935 in Coventry and died in Coventry in November 1999.

Patricia Dakin married Robert Alan Langstone. He died in 2005.

Patricia's daughter and grand daughter complete the tree.

I am waiting to hear if my attempts to contact these women have been successful.

The granddaughter would be William Wass's sister Eliza Wass's, daughter(Florence)'s daughter(Patricia)'s daughter's daughter and therefore an MtDNA match for Sgt. William Wass M.M. d 19 July 1916

I hope that goes some way to making amends for my previous brash statements.

Best,

Howard

[Marg OLEARY]

Still looking for female Mt dna for William Wass, looking in UK at present, grateful for anyone who actually knows something of this side

Marg O'Leary
Fromelles Association