Author Topic: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF  (Read 29264 times)

Offline fedelmar

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #99 on: Thursday 07 May 09 02:14 BST (UK) »
The battle took place on the night of the 19 - 20th July 1916.

Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Cornwall: POND, DUNGEY, WILLIAMS
Kent: AUSTIN, ROSER, WILSON
Sussex: ROSER, WILSON

Offline majm

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #100 on: Thursday 07 May 09 02:25 BST (UK) »
Umm,

if the battle took place on the night 19th/20th then why is there consideration for those who fell on the MORNING of the 19th?  (As per the German records)

Re the issues for international date line,  I think the dates on the AIF records were recorded at the front, ie if the record shows "missing 20/7/1916" then "20" would be the date IN FRANCE, rather than the possible Aussie date of 21/7/1916, as Aussie would be some ten hours ahead.

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Offline fedelmar

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #101 on: Thursday 07 May 09 02:29 BST (UK) »
I should have explained it better than I did ... apologies for that ... perhaps it might help to understand the battle if you have a look on the net for it or check your local library.

I just want to keep myself focussed on searching for the descendants which is my job with the Fromelles AIF lads.  Apart from that battle histories make me too emotional and I get nothing done apart from crying :)

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Sandra
Essex: PLAYLE, WHITEHEAD, PAWSEY, FARRAR, HYMUS
Cornwall: POND, DUNGEY, WILLIAMS
Kent: AUSTIN, ROSER, WILSON
Sussex: ROSER, WILSON

Offline majm

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #102 on: Thursday 07 May 09 02:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Sandra

I would share my own box of tissues with you, but my work colleagues and I need them at this moment too, as we are all ummm, emotional over these missing lads.

You take good care of you and yours, and I'll do the same here, and perhaps the lads will be having a chuckle at our endeavours all these many decades later. 

Just Moi
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Offline majm

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #103 on: Thursday 07 May 09 02:55 BST (UK) »
Umm, FROMELLES

This was the the worst 24 hours in Australia's entire history. The Australians suffered 5,533 casualties in one night. The Australian toll at Fromelles was equivalent to the total Australian casualties in the Boer War, Korean War and Vietnam War put together. ..... The find is the biggest of its kind since the end of the Great War and may lead to the discovery of 399 soldiers who were killed but whose bodies were never found and the building of the first new British war cemetery since the Sixties.  Of the dead, 239 are thought to be from the British 61st Division and 160 from the Australian 5th Division.

The soldiers perished in an Allied attack at Fromelles, 10 miles from Lille, ...... The battle, in which Adolf Hitler, then a 27-year-old corporal in the Bavarian reserve infantry is believed to have fought, was intended to divert German attention and troops away from the Battle of the Somme, the main offensive which was raging 50 miles to the south.

The attack on heavily fortified German positions on July 19/20, 1916 was, however, a disaster, leaving 5,500 Australian and 1,500 British troops dead or injured.

The missing 399 troops were known to be among the dead because their bodies were recovered by the Germans and their names and personal belongings passed to their families via the Red Cross. .....

Lest We Forget.

Moi and workmates


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Offline majm

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #104 on: Thursday 07 May 09 03:05 BST (UK) »
http://www.awm.gov.au/wartime/36/article.asp

Cannot write words, no words are adequate enough to explain, just please go to this link at the Australian War Memorial's online website. 

L E S T   W E   F O R G E T

Moi
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Offline Auimfo

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #105 on: Thursday 07 May 09 03:07 BST (UK) »
Ok, it seems there's a need for a little explanation of both the battle and the records.

On the evening of the 19th July, Australian and British troops made an advance against the German lines.   In a few places they were able to occupy the German trenches and push beyond.   These troops managed to hold the captured trenches overnight against shelling and counter attacks but by the morning of the 20th, the positions had become untenable and they had to retire back to their starting positions - handing back the captured trenches to the Germans.

The bodies of the soldiers who fell between the lines in no-man's land remained there for several years until war's end when Graves Registration Units were finally able to recover them.   Unfortunately, by that time they were unable to be individually identified and were buried in surrounding cemeteries like VC Corner and listed as 'Known Unto God'.

However, the bodies of those who had fallen in or beyond the German lines were collected by the German troops and buried at Pheasant Wood (amongst other places).   This was done in the days immediately after the battle mainly due to the risk of disease etc.   Fortunately, the Germans removed all personal items and ID disks and recorded the details.   Although the actual lists are nowhere to be found, individual German vouchers are evident in the service files of almost all these soldiers.   Unfortunately for the British, almost two thirds of their WW1 records were destroyed during the blitz of WW2 and there is no clear way of establishing a defined list beyond those who went missing during the battle.   Hence, their potential list is far larger than the Australian one and has no certainty.

The Australian documents have a variety of dates of death purely because in most cases they weren't sure whether the soldier had died on the 19th or 20th.   In fact, to begin with, they thought that many of the men had actually been captured and it was only months after the battle that it was decided by way of Red Cross enquiries and German notification that these men had actually been killed.   Thus, in many cases a nominal date was chosen and generally given as the 20th because this was when the battle ended and casualty counting began.

In fact, there are a number of these men listed as having been killed on the 21st July most likely because that's the first opportunity that particular battalion had to call the roll and record casualties.   We now know that these men were killed during the battle but their names don't appear on any memorial at Fromelles and are instead on the Villers Brettoneux Memorial.

Further to that, one particular Australian has an official date of death as about September 1916, supposedly as a POW.   This anecdotal information was given to the family fourth hand by someone who knew someone etc. and as a result was eventually recorded as such by the authorities.   We now know this was completely wrong.  

The German documents all say the 19th but this is because they record them from the date the battle began.   They too would be unsure exactly when each Allied soldier was killed as they only recovered the bodies at the end of the battle when they were able to reoccupy their lines.   I think it fair to assume that when they state "fallen at Fromelles on the 19th July", they are actually making reference to the battle which began on the 19th.

I hope this has cleared up a few questions.   I wouldn't be too concerned with which side says what date as both were just estimations.   Probably the best option would be to say they died on the 19/20th July.

I hope this has helped.

Cheers,
Tim L.
Fromelles Descendant

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #106 on: Thursday 07 May 09 03:22 BST (UK) »


Hi Tim and welcome !!  ;D

I have watched and listened to your common sense on more than one site !! thank you for trying this one !!.... Poor Sandra ! .... it was my suggestion to give the RootsChatters a challenge .... sorry Sandra ... seemed like a good idea at the time ....  :D :D just hope you can get something out of this !!

I thought most of the Aussies anyways would know EVERYTHING about Fromelles ....
theres a few of us who have been following the proceeding since practically day one ... here .... and especially on GWF and it's been a thriller thats for sure !!

Lets hope we can make a bit of a difference in that long list of yours !!

Annie  :)


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Offline Ruskie

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Re: Fromelles Missing - UK lads in the AIF
« Reply #107 on: Thursday 07 May 09 04:24 BST (UK) »
ATTN: SANDRA

Not sure what you're going to think about this (more work  :P) but I have another lad for you:

Another UK born soldier possibly in Fromelles Mass Grave. He was:

1291 Private George Honey aged 32 years
born Port Isaac, Cornwall, family later of Bodmin, Cornwall.
Parents William and Thura Honey.


[Name given to me from another researcher who requested that I pass it onto you  :)]